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Gaining volume with Kyrpa

Originally Posted by Kyrpa
I have shortly commented and continue to comment some of these findings privately with Tutt.
Too busy at the moment, but I will condence some views on these in this thread as well.

For the 2kg transitional point , it seems to indicate that using loads under 2kg it is almost purely proportional to the time under tension if we can get the strain reaching the transitional region. After that it will became crucial how the further loadings will be applied. There can be significant differences for the outcome depending on what rate the further loads are introduced , both in relation to timeline and the actual force level as well.

Thank you Kyrpa!
As I am almost ready to try this therapy on my own, I have been curious about these latest variations from Tutt which is very valuable by the way since it helps to push this novel treatment further down the road to perfection. :)

We need Manko’s to come back and join the conversation!

I believe that slowly one by one we could go growing a group trying this therapy with its variations towards improvements.

Originally Posted by igigi
Thank you Kyrpa!
As I am almost ready to try this therapy on my own, I have been curious about these latest variations from Tutt which is very valuable by the way since it helps to push this novel treatment further down the road to perfection. :)

Kyrpa and I have discussed further. I am becoming much more focused on strain rate and time under tension. As a quick summary, I tested a cyclic strain protocol today that was described by me the other day. It resulted in valuable insight but as a PE protocol was not successful. Nutshell… it produced less length at higher loads than the first 2 workouts. Notably, it wasn’t even successful in reaching equivalent BPFSL experienced on monday. In short, the original protocol was better; longer BPFSL at lower loads.

In playing around with different techniques and a few attempts at measuring the load-strain curve as well as cyclic straining, I’m actually returning right back to my initial assumptions and protocol from post #98 on this thread, with the notable exception that I don’t think the ADS is needed in Step#7.

That protocol is actually not much different than my first two treatments over the last week, with one notable difference. Recently I was prescribing a target load whereas in the first place I was prescribing a target strain and accompanying strain rate. This was a consequence of drifting toward the idea that maybe a plateau could be avoided by staying at sufficiently low loads with lower frequency. Throughout this, I began to de-emphasize the importance of strain rate in the literature. I’ve just spent hours going over old notes and research that I used to formulate that protocol, as well as re-reading this thread and digging through results and data from Kyrpa, Manko, Buckfever, etc…

Fundamentally, that was my problem with creep protocols originally. With creep-based devices it is much more difficult to control the strain rate. I can’t think of a good compact design for a device that applies constant load but prevents a fast initial strain rate. Some type of bleeder valve comes to mind, but not practical here. Stress relaxation with micrometer-controlled strain rate is most optimal. On my device the optimal rate corresponds to 2 full revolutions per minute. Would be much more convenient if either the micrometer or heating device was hands free. This is an incredibly slow rate, but well supported by the literature, and now at least some empirical observations in self-testing. Strain rate and time under load seem to be the most important factors in achieving high residual elongation at low loads. Because I still believe that low loads and lower frequency might be key to preventing the plateau, I will be slightly modifying my initial protocol to emphasize strain rate in reaching a target strain %, rather than focusing primarily on the load. If I am (was) correct, the load should stay below 2.5kg if the strain rate is slow enough.

Heat and Stretch Procedures: An Evaluation Using Rat Tail Tendon

Abstract

This study evaluated various methods of applying force to collagenous tissue at various temperatures to produce permanent elongation, using rat tail tendon as the tissue model. A materials testing machine was used to measure the forces applied and the resulting elongation produced by differing procedures. Short-term vigorous stretching and prolonged moderate stretching were compared at 37 C. The effect of heating tissue prior to applying force was evaluated, and the effect of using a prolonged application of low force was demonstrated. The data showed that the low force, long duration procedure was very effective at producing residual elongation. Elevating tissue temperature and maintaining it prior to applying force was found to cause significantly less damage; and finally, the lower loads applied at elevated temperatures for prolonged periods were found to produce significantly greater residual elongation.

Heat and stretch procedures: an evaluation using rat tail tendon - PubMed

The Mechanical Properties of Rat Tail Tendon

I believe this study is very close to what we are trying to accomplish based on the Rat tail tendon. The study contains microscopic pictures of the results, and even an experimental apparatus to obtain load-strain and stress-relaxation data. Perhaps we can replicate the model with better materials and current technology since this extensive study was performed in 1958

https://www.goo gle.com/url?sa= … iLlPeC_wvVF3C26

Agreed. Those rattail studies were carefully considered when developing my proposal in post #98 on this thread. Those results have also been supported by in vivo studies on human shoulder and horse knees. In all cases, the most significant residual elongation resulted from low load prolonged strain. The absolute best results with the least tissue damage were always achieved by heating prior to and during a very slow strain, then holding the elongation while the tissue cools.

Notably, applying ice pack seems to provide no benefit and might even be counterproductive versus just cooling at room temperature.

What do you mean low pressure for long periods is heat or weight !

Originally Posted by Alhowaidi
What do you mean low pressure for long periods is heat or weight !


Due to previous request, I’m gonna try to post a simple layman version of this and not get too technical.

Basically, there is a difference between living and dead tissue in testing. Most of the studies that look into tendon stretch use dead tissue in a lab which is almost always soaked in some type of liquid to prevent it from drying out. In the dead tissue, there is no live coordination between cells to perform the function. They are just testing the basic mechanical properties of the tissue. In a living organ like the penis, there there are all sorts of mechanical and biochemical signals being passed between cells to prevent failure and lasting damage.

So, in terms of simple mechanics of the basic tissue, without any living cellular response, the literature says that the most important aspect of permanently stretching the tissue to the point that it doesn’t simply go back to its original length, is to stretch it VERY slowly. We are talking about 0.5 to 1.0% or 1-2mm per minute. Contrast this with traditional PE like manual stretches and jelqing that apply so much force so quickly that we are seeing initial strain rates often more than 15,000 times faster than that, or like 150-300% per second. The tissue that we are stretching is viscoelastic whether dead or alive, meaning that in simple terms it has certain behaviors like your child’s silly putty. Take a piece of that putty and roll it into a cylinder. Grab each end and pull apart very swiftly. You’ll notice that it snaps in half with relatively minimal distortion of the putty on either side of the break. Now do the same thing, but pull apart at a more medium speed. It still breaks in the middle, but the putty stretches quite a bit on either side before it breaks. Now finally do the test again, but this time pull apart VERY slowly, like 1mm per minute. You will be able to reach a point where your arms cannot spread further apart, but the putty still hasn’t broken. Also, you’ll notice in these tests that the faster you pull, the more muscle it takes to break it.

Viscoelastic materials like those in the penis, respond to a rapid stretch by turning very stiff and resistant to distortion. But if you apply the same load much more slowly they remain more fluid and they essentially re-mold themselves to accommodate the stress. Interestingly, there is going to be a sweet spot when talking about PE. There were studies done on living cow tendons where the scientists wanted to see what happens microscopically to a tendon depending on how fast it is stretched. The intentionally stretched the tendons until they ruptured, but did it at different speed; 1% per second and 10% per second. Keep in mind that these speeds are still 60 to 600 times faster than what I’m suggesting for PE. Anyway, what they found was that in both cases the tendon ruptured, but the faster one experienced less damage. It simply broke in a clean line without much distortion of the tissue on either side of the break, just like the silly putty. At 1%/s rate, the tendon had a lot of microscopic damage along the entire tendon before it snapped, again just like the silly putty.

Now the rat tail studies and others have used MUCH slower stretch, and found that even getting as high as 0.16% per second results in a stiffening of the tissue and more microscopic damage, but significantly less so if you slowed down to 0.016% per second (i.e. 1% per minute). So it is really important to perform the stretch VERY VERY slowly. This will allow the tissue to re-mold itself to accommodate the stress without damage.

Secondly, they’ve found that if you heat the tissue before and during the stretch, that there is even less damage and more possible stretch at much lower load (weight). More important, is that when you combine very slow stretch with heat, you get permanent stretch of the tissue without damage. So why am I saying there is a sweet spot? Because we are trying to keep the cells as healthy as possible. Other studies have shown pretty conclusively that if you stretch the tissue at the optimal weight for 30 minutes, you body releases a bunch of chemicals that speed up the healing process, but if you go more than 60 minutes, it triggers the cells to start self-destructing (called apoptosis).

So we are trying to create a protocol that uses low weight (like 1kg) over a long time period (like 20-30 minutes) with some external heat (like a heat lamp or rice sock) to get the penis most of the way to max length without stressing it out at all. Then using ultrasound to get the internal tissues up to 41C we are then trying to stretch the tissues very slowly (1mm per minute) past the previous BPFSL limit (about 2-3mm past) and hold it there for some time and allow the stress to relax on its own. Once the stress has relaxed, we take away the heat and let the tissue cool in an stretched condition. Then we want to do this again a couple more times if possible, adding another 1mm or so to the stretch each time, still very slowly. But we have to make some compromises in terms of how many cycles we do in a single session because we ideally want the heaviest weight about 30-40 minutes into the session, and we don’t want the whole thing including final cool down to take longer than 60 minutes.

Finally, even though the studies showed that if you heat the tissue up and go slow enough you can literally stretch the dead tissue like 20-30% beyond the normal limit, this isn’t even close to realistic for living tissue. Even if you go slow and hot enough to get through the typical elastic limit at around 2.5-4% beyond the previous BPFSL, you will have to start pulling REALLY hard and things will start to get REALLY painful because the nerves don’t adapt that quickly. So really, the physiological limits are going to be about 3-7mm of excess stretch before you give the body a chance to at least partially heal.


Last edited by Tutt : 06-05-2020 at .

Originally Posted by igigi
I believe this study is very close to what we are trying to accomplish based on the Rat tail tendon. The study contains microscopic pictures of the results, and even an experimental apparatus to obtain load-strain and stress-relaxation data. Perhaps we can replicate the model with better materials and current technology since this extensive study was performed in 1958

https://www.goo gle.com/url?sa= … iLlPeC_wvVF3C26

I think we don´t need to go to the starting point , reproducing Mason and Rigby studies.
What they started was already carried further with LaBan 1962, Warren CG, Lehmann JF and Kobalsky during 1970 to 1976.
In fact Lehmann Justus F , the awarded researcer who spend his academic carear studying collagenous tissues heating and elongation should be the grand father of us all trying to elongate our units.

They are hands down the most cited authors upon the literature dealing with the topic of tissue elongation, with heat or not.
Each one of these studies are cited and referred in every study published since.
No one has ever questioned their findings which are in fact used as a ground knowledge in just about every book written about physio therapeutic modalities.

We just don´t need to replicate or question any of those studies. All we need is to discover what are the low loads they prefer adapted in our environment, and what are the needed rates for the strain both for velocity and amount.
For the treatment time there is enough evidence to limit it in one hour.

If you are not able to find the original studies, searching for the studies below you end up reading the citations time and time again confirming just about everything we are trying to say here with Tutt.

Effect of therapeutic temperatures on tendon extensibility.
Lehmann JF, Mason AJ, Warren CG, Koblanski JN.
Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1970 Aug;51(8):481-7.
PMID: 5448112 No abstract available.

Elongation of rat tail tendon: effect of load and temperature.
Warren CG, Lehmann JF, Koblanski JN.
Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1971 Oct;52(10):465-74 passim.
PMID: 5116032 No abstract available.

Heat and Stretch Procedures: An Evaluation Using Rat Tail Tendon
C G Warren, J F Lehmann, J N Koblanski
PMID: 1267581

Collagen Tissue: Implications of Its Response to Stress in Vitro
M M LABAN
PMID: 14461239

Here is attached another piece of gold by Lehmann and Warren et co.
Another authors to mention are Hardy and Woodall and attached you can find one study from them.
Again they are building on the foundation build by the authors hyped in this post. Especially the LaBan references are mesmerizing.
If you have been reading my posts you can find Warren references sound familiar already.

Provenzano is another reseacher whom have already done several favors for every PE practitioner there is.
Studying the stress relaxation and in other studies the collagenese during healing tendon and ligament injuries.
If taking some notes from him we can find out that the IPR model does not hold the ground for the penile elongation.
There is no need for injury of any kind and there is no infalmmatory responses needed for the growth to appear.

The basics for the soft tissue extensibility are already covered and there is not much recent studies available for a reason.
Modern studies are focusing on more microscopic level reactions and the scene of studies concerning mechanotransduction and ECM adaptation are trying to solve the growth induced by the mechanical stresses.

There is no burden to prove heat, long duration and low load strategy will overcome any other strategy looking for permanent lengthening.

Attached Files
lehmann1974.pdf
(2.30 MB, 20 views)
hardy1998.pdf
(2.38 MB, 14 views)

START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)


Last edited by Kyrpa : 06-05-2020 at .

What is low load then?

A quick reminder of where we are operating with every gaining program within the low load approach.

The low load protocols operate at the transtional region where the tissues stiffens radically.
With a carefully adjusted loading with the heat and stress-relaxation it is possible to achieve tehe maximal strain.
It is possible to lure through the region with low loads moving the pivot of the stiffening further, and therefor achieving strains otherwise impossible to reach without severe tissue damages.

All that matters is the strain for the ECM(extracellular matrix) to respond with growth. Not the level of stress caused for the tissue.

Stretch.PNG

Here is a illustration of the bigger picture of the load - strain curve. We are operating at the start point of the proportional(elastic) region at best.
The tensile strength of the TA is way out of the picture limits here, some of the foolests hangers have been hanging with 100 to 300 lbs loads already without tearing their precious apart. And guess what, with poor results.
Load strain big pic.PNG


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)


Last edited by Kyrpa : 06-05-2020 at .

Originally Posted by Kyrpa
I think we don´t need to go to the starting point , reproducing Mason and Rigby studies.
What they started was already carried further with LaBan 1962, Warren CG, Lehmann JF and Kobalsky during 1970 to 1976.
In fact Lehmann Justus F , the awarded researcer who spend his academic carear studying collagenous tissues heating and elongation should be the grand father of us all trying to elongate our units.

They are hands down the most cited authors upon the literature dealing with the topic of tissue elongation, with heat or not.
Each one of these studies are cited and referred in every study published since.
No one has ever questioned their findings which are in fact used as a ground knowledge in just about every book written about physio therapeutic modalities.

We just don´t need to replicate or question any of those studies. All we need is to discover what are the low loads they prefer adapted in our environment, and what are the needed rates for the strain both for velocity and amount.
For the treatment time there is enough evidence to limit it in one hour.

If you are not able to find the original studies, searching for the studies below you end up reading the citations time and time again confirming just about everything we are trying to say here with Tutt.

Effect of therapeutic temperatures on tendon extensibility.
Lehmann JF, Mason AJ, Warren CG, Koblanski JN.
Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1970 Aug;51(8):481-7.
PMID: 5448112 No abstract available.

Elongation of rat tail tendon: effect of load and temperature.
Warren CG, Lehmann JF, Koblanski JN.
Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1971 Oct;52(10):465-74 passim.
PMID: 5116032 No abstract available.

Heat and Stretch Procedures: An Evaluation Using Rat Tail Tendon
C G Warren, J F Lehmann, J N Koblanski
PMID: 1267581

Collagen Tissue: Implications of Its Response to Stress in Vitro
M M LABAN
PMID: 14461239

Here is attached another piece of gold by Lehmann and Warren et co.
Another authors to mention are Hardy and Woodall and attached you can find one study from them.
Again they are building on the foundation build by the authors hyped in this post. Especially the LaBan references are mesmerizing.
If you have been reading my posts you can find Warren references sound familiar already.

Provenzano is another reseacher whom have already done several favors for every PE practitioner there is.
Studying the stress relaxation and in other studies the collagenese during healing tendon and ligament injuries.
If taking some notes from him we can find out that the IPR model does not hold the ground for the penile elongation.
There is no need for injury of any kind and there is no infalmmatory responses needed for the growth to appear.

The basics for the soft tissue extensibility are already covered and there is not much recent studies available for a reason.
Modern studies are focusing on more microscopic level reactions and the scene of studies concerning mechanotransduction and ECM adaptation are trying to solve the growth induced by the mechanical stresses.

There is no burden to prove heat, long duration and low load strategy will overcome any other strategy looking for permanent lengthening.

I couldn’t have said this any better. PE has been ignoring well established science for decades in favor of bro science brute force, exactly the same way bodybuilding ignored science for decades. It’s a near identical repeat of history.

Kyrpa is correct. The literature is deep and unanimously accepted. There was some question about where on the load-strain curve we are referencing, but the modality of how to elongate the tissue is not in question. Modern studies are literally now culturing live cells and subjecting them to electromechanical stresses to determine biochemical response. It’s time for PE to embrace well established scientific precedent that has been around since early to mid 20th century.

Heated Low Load Long Duration is to PE what progressive overload is to bodybuilding… the foundation upon which any nuanced tweaking is based.

Originally Posted by Kyrpa
What is low load then?

A quick reminder of where we are operating with every gaining program within the low load approach.

The low load protocols operate at the transtional region where the tissues stiffens radically.
With a carefully adjusted loading with the heat and stress-relaxation it is possible to achieve tehe maximal strain.
It is possible to lure through the region with low loads moving the pivot of the stiffening further, and therefor achieving strains otherwise impossible to reach without severe tissue damages.

All that matters is the strain for the ECM(extracellular matrix) to respond with growth. Not the level of stress caused for the tissue.

Stretch.PNG

Here is a illustration of the bigger picture of the load - strain curve. We are operating at the start point of the proportional(elastic) region at best.
The tensile strength of the TA is way out of the picture limits here, some of the foolests hangers have been hanging with 100 to 300 lbs loads already without tearing their precious apart. And guess what, with poor results.
Load strain big pic.PNG

Yes…

The precise point I was trying to make is that my interim tests had abandoned a low strain rate in favor of limited duration and static load. Highly counterproductive as the fast strain rate resulted in lesser elongation at significantly higher loads. Such is the well established nature of viscoelastic tissue. The faster you pull, the harder you must pull. Ironically, in living tissue, the harder you pull the harder you must pull as well. Pull really hard and the ECM response will be to ensure that your tissue can handle that stress next time. Keep pulling harder and there is no question that the ECM response will render you unable to possibly pull hard enough without injury.

Thank you guys for bringing back the science into it.

I was thinking to myself, why nobody ever followed this path of scientific approach. And there are a couple of reasons for it. First, this whole PE thing is a new trend. Perhaps people before thought about it but never did it due to lack of information or access to information. This field really grew thanks to the internet. Still, it is very new. We are talking about no more than 20-25 years of existence. Second, it has some mystic-mythological origins. I remember back in the day when I first started researching about it in the late 90’s, it was advertised as an ancient African-middle eastern tradition to grow the penis. Third, as always we were misled and lied by the mainstream medical community. When doctors were asked if it was possible to grow the penis with exercise, they said “no, impossible” just like they say that vitamins and minerals are useless when in reality essential micronutrients are the foundation of health.

With this science available we can make wonders. Perhaps one day standardize and guarantee 2 inches. Then as time goes and experiments come up, perhaps one day we can have an established routine and protocol for 5 inches. That would put me way over my dream goal of one foot. LOL

Just like excercise science, 90% of everyone still won’t have the dedication to be consistent enough to produce more than newbie gains, or they’ll follow gimmicks and give up after stalling. Then 9.9% will be genetically gifted or find just enough valuable info to go a fair amount past newbie gains before they plateau. Then 0.1% or less will research to find the optimal methods and have the dedication to play the long game. Like the guy who spends years of consistent dedicated workouts and eating right to build 40lbs of muscle, this small group will go on to building 2-4” of BPEL.

Most people just can’t remain dedicated even with the right info at their fingertips.

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