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Hi Merlin,
Thanks for the response. Yes, the penis is largely made up of smooth muscle but skeletal muscle plays a large role in the erection process:
penismith - The Penis (smooth) Muscle Theory
The contraction of the penis, like when it is cold out, is a result of smooth muscle contraction and during an erection, the smooth muscle is relaxed.
So, for this to work, one would have to somehow target the correct penile skeletal muscles while avoiding smooth muscle stimulation.
Are you sure about this skeletal muscle stuff, PS? I though skeletal muscle was all under voluntary control, but, as many of us know to our embarrassment, erection is generally automatic. It’s true that we can kegel up a weak erection, but strong ones often come with no voluntary component.
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Heck, MM, I try to avoid words like "sure." I sometimes have trouble distinguishing between things I dreamt and things that really happened. Sometimes I wonder if there is really anything other than what I am sensing at any given time. IOW, I seriously wonder if I am making all of this up. There are a lot of weird coincidences in my life.
Oh, sorry, back to the matter at hand. There really aren’t any absolutes in biology. There are plenty of instances of skeletal muscle not always being under conscious control.
"In the corpora cavernosa, skeletal muscle contains and supports smooth muscle, which is an essential element in the sinusoids. This relationship plays an important part in the blood vessels’ ability to supply the blood to meet the requirements for erection, whereas in the corpus spongiosum, skeletal muscle partially entraps the smooth muscle to allow ejaculation when erect."
I pulled that from the abstract of the paper I have linked (in the link) above.
Or here:
http://www.andr ologyjournal.or … t/full/25/3/426
It is a very interesting study and it has cleared up many of my questions.
Hi Merlin,Thanks for the response. Yes, the penis is largely made up of smooth muscle but skeletal muscle plays a large role in the erection process:
penismith - The Penis (smooth) Muscle Theory
The contraction of the penis, like when it is cold out, is a result of smooth muscle contraction and during an erection, the smooth muscle is relaxed.
So, for this to work, one would have to somehow target the correct penile skeletal muscles while avoiding smooth muscle stimulation.
penismith,
Well, give it a try, and let us know if you get a charge from it!
Merlin
Alchemy of PE
Thanks for reminding me about he article, PS. Now that I’ve read it, I think it contains very essential information. I’m going to re-read it and maybe check some of the references. This is really a great find.
What I found particularly interesting was the fact that the ischiocavernosus muscles are what insert into the ischial tuberosities, not the tunica itself. This means that one can regard the IC muscles as being in line with the penis, rather than in parallel with it, so that stretching these muscles essentially elongates the penis’ anchor and hence expresses more length. Maybe it’s not so simple. I need to re-read. Thanks!
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penismith,
Couldn’t resist the pun, all ideas should be explored.
Merlin
Alchemy of PE.
penismith,Well, give it a try, and let us know if you get a charge from it!
I am not sure if I am the best person to try it first. I still think that magic makes the light go on when I flip the switch.
What I found particularly interesting was the fact that the ischiocavernosus muscles are what insert into the ischial tuberosities, not the tunica itself. This means that one can regard the IC muscles as being in line with the penis, rather than in parallel with it, so that stretching these muscles essentially elongates the penis’ anchor and hence expresses more length. Maybe it’s not so simple. I need to re-read. Thanks!
Yes, yes and the growth of the ischiocavernosus muscles might be what base thickening is all about. I smell a paradigm shift.
Yes. I had the same thought about base thickening when I saw how far forward the IC muscles can extend. I still need to study some more, though.
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A related article: http://www.asia … -682X/8/225.htm
AbstractAim: To summarize recent advances in human penile anatomy, hemodynamics and their clinical applications. Methods: Using dissecting, light, scanning and transmission electron microscopy the fibroskeleton structure, penile venous vasculature, the relationship of the architecture between the skeletal and smooth muscles, and erection hemodynamics were studied on human cadaveric penises and clinical patients over a period of 10 years. Results: The tunica albuginea of the corpora cavernosa is a bi-layered structure with inner circular and outer longitudinal collagen bundles. Although there is no bone in the human glans, a strong equivalent distal ligament acts as a trunk of the glans penis. A guaranteed method of local anesthesia for penile surgeries and a tunical surgery was developed accordingly. On the venous vasculature it is elucidated that a deep dorsal vein, a couple of cavernosal veins and two pairs of para-arterial veins are located between the Buck’s fascia and the tunica albuginea. Furthermore, a hemodynamic study suggests that a fully rigid erection may depend upon the drainage veins as well, rather than just the intracavernosal smooth muscle. It is believed that penile venous surgery deserves another look, and that it may be meaningful if thoroughly and carefully performed. Accordingly, a penile venous surgery was developed. Conclusion: Using this new insight into penile anatomy and physiology, exact penile curvature correction, refined penile implants and promising penile venous surgery, as well as a venous patch, for treating Peyronie’s deformity might be performed under pure local anesthesia on an outpatient basis. (Asian J Androl 2006 Mar; 8: 225-234)
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Notes on MM’s above link.
“The distal ligament of the glans penis has been overlooked in our published reports. This unique anatomical arrangement may explain why the glans penis is strong enoughto bear the buckling pressure of coitus, as well as how an erect penis is sufficiently rigid but never compresses the corpus spongiosum, which, otherwise, would present an obstacle to ejaculation. Without this strong ligament, it would be like a Christmas tree without a trunk and an umbrella without a stick.”
This is more my own note taking than anything else. I am not very knowledgeable on the above structure and, apparently, it plays an important role in rigidity.
“Thus, the skeletal ischiocavernosus muscle, the bul-bospongiosus muscle, and a bi-layered tunica albuginea support and form the corpora cavernosa, the most ideal milieu in the entire human body, to which Pascal’s principle can be applied. The skeletal bulbospongiosus muscle and a mono-layered tunica albuginea enclose, partially, the corpus spongiosum, allowing, therefore, ejaculation when erection is rigid.”
More on the role of skeletal muscle in the above quote.
3.2 Pathophysiology of ED
“…we recently conducted a hemodynamic study on seven fresh human cadavers and found that reaching a rigid erection was unequivocally attainable after the erection-related veins in all subjects were removed, in spite of the fact that their sinusoidal tissues were not alive [9].This implies that a full-rigid erection may depend upon the drainage veins as well, rather than just the intracavernosal smooth muscle (relaxation (my insert)).”
This knowledge could be of use to PE.
Great find MM. I probably missed most of the meaningful stuff but the quotes above are what stood out when I read it. I can’t find a link to the figures. Can you view them?
Fuck. I just lost a huge post. Attempting to reconstruct …
Hsu and friends have been coming out with great stuff. I thought the distal ligament was old news, but the earliest link I could find on this site was from 2004:
/forum/showthread.php?p=318629&highlight=distal+ligament# post318629
Notice this was also a paper by Hsu. Maybe we should all subscribe the the Asian Andrology Journal. All the good anatomy information seems to come from there.
We’ve talked about the distal ligament before. I think it’s essential to the operation of hanging devices. Vacuum hangers rely on it directly, since they pull on the glans. But even compression hangers like the Bib Hanger require this ligament. Otherwise the hanger would tend to slide off the end of the penis. I noticed that my distal ligament has gotten much tougher as a result of hanging. I can easily feel mine though the skin now.
It bothers me a bit that Hsu seems to take credit for discovering the bi-layered nature of the tunica:
The tunica albuginea had been consistently described as a single layer with uniform circumferential thickness. It is, however, unequivocally a bi-layered structure in which the outer longitudinal layer can be regarded as a tendon-like tissue of the finger in the extremities.
Tom Hubbard included a drawing of it here in 2001. The drawing probably dates back to considerably earlier. So, maybe Hsu tends to overreach a bit in taking credit. Or maybe he just doesn’t read US journals.
One thing I really found interesting in the article was how the outer layer of the tunica was regarded as a “tendon-like structure.” The “tendon” appears to extend from the IC muscles:
Thus, it [the outer longitudinal layer] is indeed a continuing structure of the skeletal muscles positioned proximally.
I couldn’t see the pictures, either. For those, you have to buy the article from Blackwell-Synergy for $39.
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PS: Getting back to your article , I’m very interested in exploring what happens to the tunica as the joined CC’s split into individual crura and insert into the IC muscles.
It’s never been clear to me whether the tunica extends through the middle of the IC muscles or whether it ends at the insertions into the IC muscles. I think this is important to know. If the tunica ends at the insertions, that means that the "limiting factor" for shaft gains may be the muscles rather than the tunica. I think that stretching muscles may be far easier than stretching the tunica. It’s also possible that kegels may become the "holy grail" PE exercise, if it turns out the rhythmically tensing and releasing the IC muscles stimulates their growth.
Although the article is very clear in most respects, it does not, unfortunately, clearly answer this question, at least given my ability interpreting the English language. Here’s what it says:
The ischiocavernosus (Figure 1A ) muscle is paired with and situated at the lateral boundary of the perineum. It arises from the ischial tuberosity and divides into ventral and dorsal fibers. The ventral fibers (Figure 2A ) are shorter, have a shiny appearance, and run along the medial border of each crus. These fibers continue with the outer longitudinal collagen bundles of the tunica albuginea. The dorsal fibers run along the lateral border of each crus between the crus and the periosteum of the ischial border. Some muscle fibers that arise from the inner surface of the pubis and ischium join these long, fleshy fibers as they run along the crus. They then insert into the outer longitudinal collagen bundles of the tunica.
What does "continue with" mean???? Does it mean that they transition into, or does it mean that they run alongside? The second bolded sentence appears to answer it, or maybe not. Does "insert into" mean to transition to, or to join with something somewhere along it’s length. I think the second interpretation is probably fairest, which unfortunately means that the tunica apparently does run the full length of the crus.
But since at least some of the outer fibers of the tunica spring from the IC muscles (my link), it may also be true that the tunica is quite thin within the IC muscles. Perhaps (and maybe this is just wishful thinking), all of the longitudinal fibers of the tunica spring from the IC muscles, and the only tunica fibers within the IC muscles are circumferential. That is still a possible interpretation of this paper, which is good news, I think.
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Food for thought: Maybe the IC muscles are at least partially responsible for the difference between BPEL and BPFSL (did you say this above?). The IC muscles contract during an erection, but are lax and (perhaps) easily stretched when flaccid. They would be especially easily stretched if there were few to no longitudinal tunica fibers encased within the muscles.
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I am sorry. I blew a piston in my brain. I will try to contribute to this discussion again when I get it back from the shop.