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Science of PE Posts and Threads. Link Here!

Science of PE Posts and Threads. Link Here!

Awhile back, Para-Goomba suggested that we link all of the important science of PE posts in one thread. I think that it is a great idea.

Please link the best science of PE threads and posts here. Different posts from the same thread may be listed here separately. List the date at the top of the post and say why you think that the thread and/or post is significant. Posts may be rearranged or consolidated for organizational purposes.

Comments on how you think the information should be organized are very welcome.

Questions posted in this thread may be moved to this first post so check this post for updates.

Once we have all of the important information linked here, we can arrange it in a clear and logical way so that science minded newbies can more quickly and easily get up to speed. Maybe it will be part of the Thunder’s wiki.

Thank you!

Last edited by penismith : 11-01-2006 at .


“Their protocol for treating joint contractures using a similar adjustable device is to begin with one 30 minute session per day for the first week, go to 2 30 minute sessions the second week, and 3 per day for the remaining weeks. Retensioning is done every 5 minutes.”

This may or may not be the first thread on this subject.

I linked this because it references a method for lengthening tissue.

Stretchers and Stress Relaxation

Last edited by penismith : 11-01-2006 at .


“…collagen deformation…the take home message…is taking adequate time off between sessions depending on the nature of the excercise, and depending on what part of the healing phase the tissues are in. I’ve listed some of the stress amounts listed below, while being high, are withing the realms of hangers and stretchers here.
You can get the full article here:

The stress is divided into four bands which are defined very roughly as follows:

A <80N (<18lbs)
B 80-180N (18-40lbs)
C 180-280N (40-63lbs)
D >280N (>63lbs)”

I linked this because it discusses collagen deformation. Collagen is a structural protein that plays a role in determining the volume of the erect penis.

Deformation: Intensity, Method and Recovery guidelines


“I talked to the doc about this too. I was actually asking for her opinion on stretching the tunica — the tendon-like tissue that is just a continuation of the BC/IC muscles at the base of the penis…

She was rather fond of the idea that we have to enlarge both the tunica and the smooth muscle. She went on to tell me that she once worked in physical therapy with kids that had head injuries. She said “the malfunctioned neurons of the kids caused their muscles to contract for long periods of time.” As a result, their tendons shrank, and the kid’s arms were bunched up. It was a really sad story…

But as fortune has it, this is were she came into play: it was her job to help fix the problem. They had to stretch the tendons, so the kids could have the full use their arms again. She says they used slow, gentle stretches everyday, and as a result the tendons would elongate. “The key was persistence,” she said. (I thought this sounded pretty familiar).

So, at this point my main question was does the tendons (or tunica) tear, get thinner, or what exactly when stretched? She said she didn’t know, but she doesn’t think tendons tear or become thinner. She thinks tendons, and probably the tunica, just elongate (regeneration, I presume)…

remek - IPR the sky is the limit?

Last edited by penismith : 11-18-2006 at .

“…based on the IPR Theory of repair http://www.elec … ling/tissue.htm for connective (i.e. contractive) tissues in (as much as possible) the non-contracted state. Much of my thinking and understanding of this material has been influenced by discussion with or posts by MX and Shiver. Much thanks guys.”

I linked this because it includes mathematical modeling of PE.

xenolith - Finding xeno: a penis tale

This modeling is of the wound healing process as it pertains to the trauma induced by the practice of manual penis enlargement.

The wound healing process is discussed in the publication and posts in the following thread:


“Acute inflammatory phase. In this phase, ischemia, metabolic disturbance, and cell membrane damage lead to inflammation, which, in turn, is characterized by infiltration of inflammatory cells, tissue edema, fibrin exudation, capillary wall thickening, capillary occlusions, and plasma leakage. Clinically, inflammation manifests as swelling, erythema, increased temperature, pain, and loss of function. The process is time dependent and mediated by vascular, cellular, and chemical events culminating in tissue repair and sometimes scar (adhesion) formation.

Proliferative phase. These changes include fibrin clotting and a proliferation of fibroblasts, synovial cells, and capillaries. The inflammatory cells eliminate the damaged tissue fragments by phagocytosis, and fibroblasts extensively and markedly elevate production of collagen (initially, the weaker, type 3 collagen, later type 1) and other extracellular matrix components.

Maturation and remodeling phase. In this phase, the proteoglycan-water content of the healing tissue decreases and type 1 collagen fibers start to assume a normal orientation. Approximately 6 to 8 weeks postinjury, the new collagen fibers can withstand near-normal stress, although final maturation of tendon and ligament tissue may take as long as 6 to 12 months.”

xenolith - To ADS or not to ADS

Last edited by penismith : 11-18-2006 at .


“Physiologic Indicators (PIs) to help growth!
NEGATIVE PIs meaning that when you see these, it is a sign that you are over training your unit, and you need to cut back the amount of force/time applied. POSITIVE PIs means that it is an excellent indicator that you are NOT over training your unit, and probably improving it. NEUTRAL PIs, are neither obviously positive or negative.”

I linked this because it is directed at defining indicators of productive PE.

Physiologic Indicators (PIs) to help growth!


“Originally Posted by pubmed
1: J Urol. 2004 Feb;171(2 Pt 1):771-4. Related Articles, Links

Sildenafil preserves intracorporeal smooth muscle after radical retropubic prostatectomy.

Schwartz EJ, Wong P, Graydon RJ.

Division of Urology, University of Connecticut Health Sciences Center, Farmington, USA.

The important role of corpora cavernosal smooth muscle in potency has been known since Goldstein et al reported the first examination of erectile tissue. 8 Normal smooth muscle content and function are necessary for the initiation and maintenance of erection. 6 Published reports suggest that the average intracorporeal smooth muscle percent is between 40% and 50%. 9 Our unpublished data confirm this rate with the finding of an incidence of smooth muscle of about 49% in normal potent males in the general population. In contrast, patients with veno-occlusive dysfunction show a much lower percent on microscopic examination. A prior study suggested that these patients have a smooth muscle percent of 10% to 36%. 9 Concomitant intracorporeal fibrosis results in abnormal smooth muscle function, increased venous leakage and eventually impotence.”

There are many physiological ideas in this thread. The first post starts a discussion on penile smooth muscle.

The Penis (smooth) Muscle Theory


“read an article on the regeneration of smooth muscles in pigs (ureter) which has an interesting point. It seems that in this particular case, the regenerated muscle tissues were interwoven with collagen fibers. It states “The regenerated smooth-muscle bundles were oriented in different directions and intermingled with fibrous tissue.” May have significance?”

http://cat.inis … cpsidt=16430689
Iquana - IPR the sky is the limit?

Last edited by penismith : 11-18-2006 at .


“Anatomy of the Human Penis: The Relationship of the Architecture Between Skeletal and Smooth Muscles

Full article:

http://www.andr ologyjournal.or … t/full/25/3/426

and attached.

Interesting, it looks like base thickening due to hanging, etc, might result from skeletal muscle development.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Anatomy of the Human Penis.pdf (313.3 KB, 25 views)”

This post links a study that discusses the interplay between penile smooth muscle and skelatel muscle in the erectile process.

penismith - The Penis (smooth) Muscle Theory


“Several people have reported to me that a topical testosterone cream can increase penis size…The person i know gained .5 inches in three weeks…

METHODS: Cover penis with transderal 4AD

THEORY: 4AD is converted to TEST, which is converted to DHT and many other androgens. These androgens saturate the penile tissue, and raise basel levels to purbertal-thus inducing hyperplasia.”

This thread discusses the potential use of hormones for PE.

Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


“…I sometimes do is watch porn after I apply the 4AD. Maybe thats the key. If your on 4AD, watch some porn post-appliction, try not to touch your dick, you dont want to rub the stuff off. Keeping an errection could help enhance the local effect.”

In this post, the thread originator is in the progress of discussing likelihood of site specific activity of a trandermally applied hormone to the penis. The utility of site specific application was a major theme in this thread.

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


“Ok. It has been 21 days. I an going to stop my cycle now. I will probably resume in 10 days or so.

Starting ELBP length: 6.5
Ending ELBP length: 7.1

Starting BP flaccid stretch: 6.75
Ending BP flaccid stretch: 7.25

Starting EG: 5.0
Ending EG: 5.45

PE excersizes: Zero. Cardio: Run once per week. Lifting: Once per week. Applications per day:2. Approx mass of 4AD in each ap: 20 mgs. Weight: No fluctuations. Hair line: No change. Sleep: 8 hrs. Masturbation Frequency: zero. Vits: Mg/Zn/Bcomplex. Meditation: Yes.”

These are the reported results of the thread originator. “Yes, I briefly tried 3alpha for a few days. Nothing significantly different.” was added in response to a question in post #281. There are other reports of gains, or a lack there of, in the thread. There are other observations such as the following:

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


“Has anyones erection angle changed? Man, I was at 9:00 and now I am at 11:00. This is a good thing…”

Cya at 8 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes

This poster also reported a small gain in size; however, he had very recently performed manual exercises. He quit manual exercises when he began the hormonal applications and the rest form manual PE may have affected his erectile angle.


“Adding testosterone to your body causes the testes to stop producing testosterone. Why should they produce it when that work is being done for them artificially? The common result of the cessation of production is that the testicles begin to atrophy. The downside of that process is that testosterone begins to convert to other classes of hormones which are not at all good for men in large numbers. Finding your way back to normal again can be a very long and highly complicated process. IF you got a bigger dick from all that, you’d wish while you were trying to get back to normal that you still had a smaller dick, and balls that were doing their regular work.”

This post is a warning a danger associated with disrupting normal hormonal function.

avocet8 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


“…you are doing PE by stretching to measure. Granted, it’s not much. I gained 1/2” my first month from a very minimal routine, only doing about half a dozen workouts.

Also, you have stopped masturbating (ejaculating). Does this include sex too? If I went more than a few days without blowing a load I’d have very frequent and very hard erections. If this is happening to you it could explain the size increase - your dick has become healthier, living up more toward its potential, and also actually increasing in size as a result of the “super erections.” IIRC, you said you are taking yohimbe. This may also be helping the quality of your erections.”

hobby - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes

In this reply, several important points are made. Initial gains are frequently easily obtained, seminal retention can lead to more rigid erections as can the consumption of yohimbe. I modified the first sentence. In response, the original poster claims to have controlled for these variables.


“There is no way to curb potential risks to the prostate. It is such close proximity to the where you are putting this gel that even if it was 90% local, there still would be effects shown by the prostate.

There are no 90 /100% local delivery methods. If you make this more local then you increase the dangers by making it able to be local anywhere you put it. An accidental spill on the testis would be a very bad thing instead of a minor irritation. I would need to find the effects of direct contact to the testicles.”

This post points out the dangers associated with topical delivery of a hormone to the penis.

Cya at 8 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes

Importantly, in the publications that follow there are many reports of an enlarged penis as a result of androgen application to prepubescent males and/or individuals with hormonal disorders. I don’t know of any published cases of an enlarged penis in normal healthy post pubescent men in response to androgen application. That is not to say that has not been published in one of the following references.

Relevant scientific publications:

Testosterone therapy in microphallic hypospadias: Topical or parenteral?, Journal of Pediatric Surgery, Volume 38, Issue 2, February 2003, Pages 221-223
G. Chalapathi, K. L. N. Rao, S. K. Chowdhary, K. L. Narasimhan, Ram Samujh and J. K. Mahajan

Steroid 17-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency in man: An inherited form of male pseudohermaphroditism, The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Volume 43, Issue 8, December 1992, Pages 989-1002

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes

Androgens are not Major Down-regulators of Androgen Receptor Levels during Growth of the Immature Rat Penis, The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Volume 57, Issues 5-6, March 1996, Pages 301-313
Jacob RajferShen Ruoqing, Lin Ming-Chung, Farshid Sadeghi, Néstor F. Gonzalez-Cadavid and Ronald S. Swerdloff

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Immergut M, Boldus R, Yannone E, et al: The topical application of
testosterone cream to the prepubertal phallus. J Urol 105:905-906, 1971

Jacob SC, Kaplan GW, Gittes RF: Topical testosterone therapy
for penile growth. Urology 6:708-710, 1975

Sakakibara N, Nonamura K, Koyanagi, et al: Use of testosterone
ointment before hypospadias repair. Urol Int 47:42-43, 1991

Darby CW, Vanderschuerren M, Lode W, et al: Testosterone
cream use (or) abuse? Lancet 2:598, 1974

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Response of micropenis to topical testosterone and gonadotrophines. A comparative study (author’s transl), Anales Espanoles De Pediatria, Volume 16, Issue 2, February 1982, Pages 145-152
Díaz Gómez, L A; Lagarón Comba, E; Pérez Escariz, P

Response of micropenis to topical testosterone and gonadotropin, The Journal Of Urology, Volume 119, Issue 5, May 1978, Pages 667-668 Klugo, R C; Cerny, J C

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Transdermal dihydrotestosterone therapy and its effects on patients with microphallus.

Choi SK, Han SW, Kim DH, de Lignieres B.

Department of Urology, Yonsei University College of Medicine, Seoul, Korea.

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


The effect of testosterone on androgen receptors and human penile growth. J Urol. 1997 Sep;158(3 Pt 2):1113-8.
PMID: 9258152 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

“CONCLUSIONS: Testosterone influences penile growth, possibly as a result of extracellular stromal expansion. The number of androgen receptor positive cells in the human fetal penis did not change among the castrate, normal and super testosterone hosts. These experiments support the hypothesis that penile growth cessation is mediated by mechanisms other than down regulation of the androgen receptor.”

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Pilot study of the transdermal application of testosterone gel to the penile skin for the treatment of hypogonadotropic men with erectile dysfunction.

Schultheiss D, Hiltl DM, Meschi MR, Machtens SA, Truss MC, Stief CG, Jonas U.

Department of Urology, Medizinische Hochschule Hannover, Germany. schlutheiss.dir …

“Relevance: Several peoplehave asked if topical androgens have ever been used on adults. In this study, they tried to treat ED. ~30 percent sucess rate.

Pilot study of the transdermal application of testosterone gel to the penile skin for the treatment of hypogonadotropic men with erectile dysfunction.”

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Penile growth: topical versus systemic testosterone therapy in rats.
J Endocrinol. 1977 Apr;73(1):189-90. No abstract available.
PMID: 858985 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


The effect of testosterone on androgen receptors and human penile growth.

Baskin LS, Sutherland RS, DiSandro MJ, Hayward SW, Lipschutz J, Cunha GR.

Department of Urology, University of California San Francisco Children’s Medical Center, USA.

nearlythere - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


“DHT is the stimulatory growth factor responsible for full development of the external genitalia in males. A novel use of DHT may be the topical application to congenitally undersized genitalia to enhance penile growth.”

Highlights From the VII
International Congress of Andrology
held in Montreal, Canada

http://www.thea ntiagingdoctor. … onandrology.htm

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Br J Plast Surg. 1983 Jul;36(3):398-400. Microphallic hypospadias: testosterone therapy prior to surgical repair.
Tsur H, Shafir R, Shachar J, Eshkol A.
http://www.ncbi … 4&dopt=Abstract

skeetersonme - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Am J Dis Child. 1980 Mar;134(3):296-8. Topically applied testosterone and phallic growth. Its effects in male children with hypopituitarism and microphallus. Ben-Galim E, Hillman RE, Weldon VV.

skeetersonme - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


J Urol. 1978 May;119(5):667-8. Response of micropenis to topical testosterone and gonadotropin.
Klugo RC, Cerny JC.

skeetersonme - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Urology. 1975 Dec;6(6):708-10. Topical testosterone therapy for penile growth.
Jacobs SC, Kaplan GW, Gittes RF.

Jones8315 - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Eur J Endocrinol. 1998 Feb;138(2):176-80. Effect of insulin-like growth factor-I treatment on serum androgens and testicular and penile size in males with Laron syndrome (primary growth hormone resistance).
Laron Z, Klinger B.
http://www.ncbi … 2&dopt=Abstract

skeetersonme - Gain .5 inch/month with no excersizes


Horm Res. 2001;56(5-6):177-81. Kinetics and effect of percutaneous administration of dihydrotestosterone in children. Charmandari E, Dattani MT, Perry LA, Hindmarsh PC, Brook CG.
http://www.ncbi … earch&DB=pubmed

an actual URL to a study

Last edited by penismith : 11-06-2006 at .


“Types of Stretch (Deformation of the Connective Tissue)

Elastic: - Spring-like action in which any lengthening of the connective tissue that occurs during stretching is recovered when the load is removed.
- Muscle fiber has only elastic properties.

Plastic: - Elongation occurs even after the load is removed.
- Ligaments & tendons have both plastic and elastic properties.
- Connective tissue has both. When the stretch is removed, the elastic deformation recovers and the plastic deformation remains.”

This thread discusses models of the different types of tissue deformation.

MX - Plastic vs. Elastic Deformation: Time and Technique

Penismith - great work! Thank you for the sake of pe and science.

Later - ttt

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