The Holy Grail of PE is found!!!

If I remember correctly there are several of them and some of them have gained a lot, Maybe it would be an idea to a start a poll that showed the correlation between gains and use of Viagra/Cialis?

BG, oh hail lord of the pills/dick/gains/women, please chime in with your wisdom.

While general/gross PIs (such as the ability to achieve a full erection) are very useful, I really think it takes at least some precise, daily measuring to understand what’s really going on. And in a way, measurements are the ultimate PIs.

So what I would be more interested in is determining the minimum number of jelq strokes necessary to make a gain. IOW, if gains stalled at 300 strokes, what’s the minimum number I now need to do in order to register at least a 1mm gain of some sort (BPFSL, BPEL, EG).

I went though two cycles in which I took daily measurements. The pattern was always the same.
Training day = X (size in millimeters)
1st rest day = X - 0 or 1mm
2nd rest day = X + 1 or 2mm
Training day = X + 1mm (~1mm net gain)

This pretty much continues until gains suddenly stall. At that point, I would either take a decon break or begin to increase the volume and/or intensity in attempt to get things moving again. Eventually, you’ll end up having to take a decon break or endure a long dry spell.

Another approach to this problem would be to use some sort of work-volume multiplier. In my estimation, a 2-10% increase in the number of stokes per workout is a good starting point.

I have always said size gain or loss IS the ultimate PI.

I have also said that I think daily precise measurements are needed to really accurately observe how your PE is effecting you.

I finally acknowledged that bpfl is probably the way to go with this.

You need to decide on a angle of measurement…such as 90 degrees straight out, and for me I need to take about 5-10 attempts and then take the longest you can repeat at least 2-3 times.

If you take measurements along with the more general PIs…I think you have some really excellent tools to determine the effect your routine is having on you…fairly quickly.

The sooner you can acertain whether you are on or off track, the quicker you can make corrections or not.

I got in the most trouble when I was off track for weeks and didn’t know it.

Now, its obvious to me that day or next if I screwed up.

The purpose of the medication is cause engorement.

I guess this is medication clamping. These doctors have him clamping for 3 to 6 hours a day, for four to five times per week, and for over an 18 month treatment period.

When I used to cable clamp, my routine was to clamp for 10 minutes, for two times a week, and with a 100% engourment.

This guy over did it with the medication clamping and with good results.

I added the emphasis to the last sentence. If this is true, then the “holy grail” could be some kind of electronic device which could stimulate the nerves to cause an erection. I question the validity of the injection studies, particularly that a 40% - 75% erection sustained for a few hours can cause gains. Like others, I’d be huge if that were true as I’ve regularly done this edging etc. I believe that the erection needs to be 110% to cause permanent gains - that is, pushed to the limit and beyond. Some level of sustained expansion afterwards may be beneficial as well, this is just based on what I’ve read and experienced. Bib was clamping way before anyone had heard of cable clamps, using a “uli thing” made with a hose clamp. He stressed the importance of getting an intense amount of pressure, as well as limiting clamping sessions to 10 minutes.

I also question how much length could be increased with a “priapism-like” method, I do believe that some length gain is certainly possible but this is obviously not going to stretch the ligaments.

So did we ever come to a conscensus about whether these studies are bogus or not?
I agree it sounds doubtful that 40% to 70% erection would cause gains, unless the medication did something else, besides just causing a partial erection (like softening connective tissue or stimulate growth in some way).

I think if you are thinking in terms of plastic deformation…No.

If we are talking some sort of STIMULATION for cell growth…maybe.

I can’t find that study Shiver posted, but for tissue repair after injury, they give a force range a <18 lbs, to stimulate fibrocyte depostion.

That means less than 18 lbs, for 20-30 minutes start the process…how much less?

Would 1 lb for 30 minutes do it?

It it does, than it is possible that a 40-75% erection for 6 hours, 3 days a week for 18 months COULD stimulate growth.

Hell, guys like Avocet have found low vacuum forces (like 2-3 in hg, which translates to about 3-5 lbs of traction) for 20 minutes a day have produced significant gains with no injuries or discoloration.

He found that by adding a few minutes of jelquing…did even better (mild plastic deformation?)

I think we really have to start separating in our minds whether we are going the stimulation or deformation route.

If you go with stimulation (and we not even sure if this is truly whats happening, but we’ll go with this concept for now), then I think you have to really make sure you stay below forces that cause any significant contraction.

If you go with the plastic deformation concept, I think you really need to do strategic deconditioning breaks as soon a progress stops.

Shivers posted study indicated that below 18 lbs, there was almost no tissue damage. Of course this wasn’t done on a penis, probably something like an leg or ankle.

The study indicated less than 18 lbs for 20-30 minutes stimulated fibrocyte depostion, without tissue damage.

I think that there is a perfect amount of force for each individual that stimulates growth, AND does a slight amount of plastic deformation, without much tissue damage.

I think those that can find that “zone” get the best of both worlds, and if they add ADS or ADC they maximize that zone to the highest potential.

Anyway, thats my thoughts on it.

I do think that understanding what mechanism you are using is important.

For example, if you are hanging 40 lbs off your dick, and you haven’t gain anything in three months…its probably sensible to go on a decon break…don’t you think?

If you are using lets say a pump at 2 in hg and making slow but steady progress, decide to try 10 in hg…and your dick turns into a dimple…probably wise to take a few days off and go back to 2 in hg and patience again…yes?

[Thats if your little experiment didn’t cause some fibrous changes which might require a week off.]

I’m starting to think that even with low forces, a decon break might be far more effective than continuing to up the forces.

Lets just say that most guys can get good progress pumping by starting a 2 in hg, and slowly work up to 5-6 in hg.

Instead of continuing to climb in forces, maybe when 6 in hg shows no gains for 2 weeks, take a 3-4 week break and start in again at 3 in hg…?

I think the problem really comes in when you are mixing all these different force levels together and wonder why nothings working.

If you have hung with forces great enough to create plastic deformation, and fibrotic changes…and have plateaued…do you really think pumping will re-start your progress? HIGHLY DOUBTFUL!

On the other hand, if you made progress pumping, then plateau…hanging into plastic deformation range WILL give some additional gains until significant fibrotic changes set in….then going back to almost anything else won’t do a damn thing.

The only thing to do at that point is DECONDITIONING BREAK!

I see many relative newbies that shoot right past low forces into force/time levels that immediately cause contraction/fibrotic reactions…and wonder why they aren’t growing.

Usually they respond to that by upping it further, until injury takes them out of the game.

If we had a workable force level chart that could indicate the bodys reactions at that level, it would sure be helpful in diagnosing where we are, what we need to do to improve, continue or recover.

I think that Shivers post was a good start…if you guys have anything else…bring it up!

Here is information we need to really start to make this a science;

1)What force/time ranges have what effect of deformation vs growth.

2)What time frames are needed for decondition based on levels of fibrotic changes. [eg, mildly fibrotic…3 weeks, major fibrotic changes…3 months]

I think we may already have this info here at Thunders…may not be exactly right for the penis…but I think it is good enough for us to improve the effectiveness of our PE.

This thread got me thinking. The study implies that you can get gains by stretching the erectile tissues (w/ vasodilators) more than normal and keeping a 50-85% or so erection for a minimum of 3 hours (w/ Viagra/cialis/levitra etc) so the tissues can repair themselves at that enlarged state and keep those gains.

Now, I’m a big fan of pumping at low in/Hg for extended periods of time (2 to 3 and even 4 hours) usually splitted in 2-3 sets. I personally think that in that amount of time, some cells will heal up in that expanded state, but not all (I think it takes more time than a couple of hours), and will, overtime, stay that size and shape.

I’ve read somewhere (sorry, don’t remember where) that at around 111-112F, if I recall right, that cell growth and/or tissues repair is greatly enhanced. If anyone know anything more precise then this please feel free to post some info or some links to help me out.

Anyway, this brings me to my theory. What if you where to pump to a certain size and apply heat until the penis would be 111-112 F (not the whole body) and maintain that heat, wouldn’t that cut the time that the penile tissue takes to repair itself during the pumping session and increasing the gains of that pumping session.

Tell me what you think :)

Black Swordsman, I’ve been thinking that too. How about a pump cylinder with built-in heat coils? Then sit there for an hour at 1”Hg.

ll

Welcome B.S.,

Most of the low vacuum, longer duration pumpers, as well as most pumpers HAVE found that heat improves results….your thinking is correct.

I don’t think low vacuum damages much tissue (thats why guys have gotten steady progress), I think it falls in the category of cell growth stimulation with mild plastic deformation.

I think it may even be too little force for plastic deformation (for some pumpers), which is where moderate jelquing may come in.

[I’m sure human tissues have a range of force needed, not an exact number. Probably effected by genetics, nutrition, age and damage.]

Wad had written a thread on a big gainer friend of his, the guy had added like 3 feet of dick (I’m kidding).

Wad felt that the key for this guy was modest jelquing forces where he gradually added TIME not increased force.

The guy had never had discoloration or injury. I think he finally increased his time to the point of overtraining and plateaued.

Every time he would plateau and quit…when he came back after like a year or something, he would start easy and build up again…and bust through his old plateau.

Seems to fit the bill EXACTLY like were talking here.

The trick is if we can develop some force/time RANGES as a rough guideline, then PIs to know where you’re at in the cycle.

Throw in some deconditioning time ranges ( as well as patience and discipline) and I think you have the recipe for a big dick! :)

I was reading back over this thread…and I want to address this.

I think, in the end, what matters is the FORCE you develop per jelque over a period of TIME of usage.

The problem with jelquing is we don’t have a force measurement with it, you have to say like, “medium grip” or “light grip” which really is meaningless to anyone but you.

You can roughly reproduce the force YOU use by “feel” but one man’s light grip may be significantly higher forces than anothers…hence it will always be almost impossible to give a range of jelques and have it mean something reproducible for others. ( thats why PIs are important)

I have always liked pumping and hanging for that very reason.

If I say 5 in hg for 10 minutes to someone on the otherside of the world, if he has a pump with a gauge…he can get damn close to it (cheap gauges CAN vary widely).

If I say, hang 5 lbs for 20 minutes…same thing.

Jelquing, no doubt IS an excellent form of PE, its COMMUNICABILITY AND REPRODUCIBILITY is the problem.

Now, if Electron or one of our mechanical geniuses here want to make a JELQUING MACHINE…now we have something to work with! It would have settings for force,time, reps and duration of stroke.

Hell, they can make machines to milk cows…I’m sure you could make a jelquer…add a happy ending feature… and it will sell like hotcakes! :)
( to anyone who has about $5,000.00 to blow)

For guys interested in exploring some of the science behind PE.
==============================================

Structure and Function of Ligaments and Tendons

The Dose-Response Relationship of Exercise
http://www.ulti mate-exercise.c … e-response.html

The Does-Response Relationship of Exercise, Part II:
The Narrow Therapeutic Window
http://www.ulti mate-exercise.c … -response2.html

Fascial Plasticity – A New Neurobiological Explanation

Tendon and ligament adaptation to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization

Role of Extracellular Matrix in Adaptation of Tendon and Skeletal Muscle to Mechanical Loading
http://physrev. physiology.org/ … t/full/84/2/649

Fascial Plasticity – A New Neurobiological Explanation

A Model for Loading-dependent Growth….
http://www-hsc. usc.edu/~wren/R … Wren1998JBM.pdf

Tendon and ligament adaptation to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization

Role of Extracellular Matrix in Adaptation of Tendon and Skeletal Muscle to Mechanical Loading
http://physrev. physiology.org/ … t/full/84/2/649

European Research Project on Fascial Contractility

Research on Static Progressive Stretch

A role for extracellular matrix binding receptors in regulating hematopoietic growth factor signaling
http://www.pnas .org/cgi/conten … ll/100/24/13737

Myths and Truths of Stretching, Ian Shrier, MD, PhD; Kav Gossal, MD
THE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE - VOL 28 - NO. 8 - AUGUST 2000
http://www.phys sportsmed.com/i … 8_00/shrier.htm

For those interested in exploring the topic even further, these books are worth reading
==========================
Biology of Collagen, by Andrus Viidik
Frontiers in Biomechanics, by G.W..Woo, S.L-Y Schmid-Schonbein
Therapeutic Heat and Cold, by Justus Lehmann
Therapeutic Exercise, by Carolyn Kisner
Biochemistry of Collagen, by Ramachandran
Collagen: Primer in Structure, Processing and Assembly, by Jürgen Brinckmann

ModestoMan - Possible explanation for slow/no gains

MX - Possible explanation for slow/no gains

Larslaukanen that’s a great idea, but I think the heat coils would have to be on the outside of the cylinder so you don’t burn your unit and you’d have to have a glass cylinder and even there the cylinder could shatter (because of the high heat of the coils) on your unit with the vacuum applied which means a big fat implosion on your penis :faint:

I think the best way would be to wrap the cylinder with a heat pad which you can control the heat more easily IMO. Plus I use a plastic cylinder (the gravel cleaner thing), so I think the coil would melt it :( . But the idea is great, Lapdist should sell some heat pads specially made and fitted for their cylinders as an option :p .