Why Near Infrared is better than FIR and US

Solvay, do you reckon NIR goes through silicone? I’m guessing yes since I measure the temperature between the silicone sheath (from the LG hanger) and my skin, and the temperature ends up at 39 degrees after 30 mins….

Solvay, what are your thoughts for a device such as this:

The LYMA Laser | Home Cosmetic Laser Treatment

And I’d like to hear your thoughts of laser vs LED.

It’s one of the first high level devices exploiting IR radiation for skin treatment. As I said already, I think in a few years there’s going to be a whole, huge bunch of these.
This is wildly, wildly overpriced though; probably they’re trying to profit the early phase of this market, before the arrival of many more devices will push prices down.
It is kinda fun to read on their site so much of what we’ve been discussing, even if of course they present it like it’s some sort of exclusive.

About laser vs led: IR radiation is the same.
It doesn’t really matter, laser is only more intense (but also focused on a smaller area). I think laser is better for localized skin and anti age treatment, while leds on a pad are better for treating a larger area. PE belongs to this second group, so we’re lucky a 50$ pad is just as effective and way more handy than a 2400$ laser device.

Used the pad for the first time tonight, I was squeezing the pad with my hands around it and so the pad had skin contact and wow it heats up fast, and not like a IR heating pad type of heat where it hurts the skin more than anything and is surface level only which I used to have before, it felt heated deep all the way to the core. I didn’t even use the red light, just the 850nm setting.
I wish there was another way of measuring temps other than shoving something up your p hole cause there is no way I’m doing that. Or that someone who is willing to that tries it with a high irradiance pad like I got, to see how long it takes to reach 40C, because if it really is heating to the core like it feels like it’s doing, then there is no point in using ultrasound anymore.

In general I had the very strange feeling pumping was making my foreskin grow. I’m uncut but with naturally short foreskin, and when I used the pump I noticed gains in that sense - gains I actually do not want.

A couple other issues are:
1) I’m reasonably thick already, I think pumping pushes more towards girth than length gains. For the time being I prefer to focus on length.
2) the pump cylinder seems to absorb IR radiation, even if this seems to happen way more with the 660nm wavelength.

All in all I think I’ll try again pumping in future, after some more length gain, even if that means I’ll have to find another cylinder (the current one is only 20cm long and with my BPFSL at ~19cm I’ve almost got to the end of it).

Solvay1927 tried to explain this earlier: the mechanism for growth with NIR light is not the therapeutic heat we get from FIR pads or US devices. The goal of NIR pads is not to increase the temperature to a therapeutic levels, where collagen starts to change, but rather to bring enough NIR energy to the tissue so it accelerates growth metabolism. So measuring heat for that reason would be a bit pointless. Unfortunatelly there is no known measurement to know if you used enough exposure to NIR in order to elicit any growth or change. Its all just a guess at best right now.

I think it’s necessary to clear up a little the issue of IR effects and "how much is too much", also because you might think I’m trying wildly different things and I gave little reason to explain why.

From a scientific point of view, I made an error. Since I’m trying to keep separate this PE experiment from my job on IR, I realized I was having two different mindsets at home and at work.
Knowing the positive effect of heat on PE - from all the previous experience gathered here and on other forums - and following what we said in this thread, I ended up trying to combine the positive effect of NIR with heat by increasing the dosage and focusing over 850nm to avoid excessive heat on the external skin.
The result FOR ME has been far less length gains, but as I said many times, I have to report that in the last couple of months I’ve been practising PE a lot less than I used to do in the previous months. I also changed the routine by adding pumping.
My error has been to combine two very different effects in a way that now makes it impossible for me to understand the consequences of each.

NIR radiation has many effects on human tissues, as discussed in previous posts. Among them, there are two effects in particular which are of pivotal importance to understand why for PE there could really be ‘too much’. They seem to contradict each other.

[I previously said there’s hardly ‘too much’ with IR, as long as you keep that within reason (avoiding using extra powerful lamps for hours and hours). I stand by that, meaning that ‘within reason’ the worst can happen is you lose the positive effects of IR. It’s not going to make you develop penis cancer, nor it’s going to bake and make your penis fall. IR still is inherently much safer than other methods, and IMHO even safer than exercises like jelqing, hanging and clamping, for example]

Effect 1:
- downregulation of matrix metalloproteinase 1 (MMP-1) and the upregulation of type I procollagen.
MMP-1 is a collagenase (enzyme) used by cells to regulate the degradation and remodeling of collagen and the extracellular matrix, so a downregulation of MMP-1 and upregulation of procollagen will result in increased production of collagen in the tissues and faster growth, with positive improvements in texture and roughness. That’s what NIR is best for - as I previously said, it triggers a process that increases the production of collagen and renews the extracellular matrix.

Effect 2:
- Increased heat, which causes upregulation of matrix metalloproteinase 1 (MMP-1). Yes, it’s the opposite.
Increased levels of MMP-1 are associated with enhanced collagen degradation: while some collagen degradation is necessary for the normal turnover and remodeling of tissues, excessive MMP-1 can lead to tissue damage, particularly in the skin. It may seem absurd, but too much IR could cause wrinkles and impaired wound healing, rather than the straight opposite.
When this excessive collagen degradation by heat happens the visible consequence (in the worst cases) is an erythema ab igne, which usually happens to people exposing skin to excessive heat (e.g. glass blowers).
The key point is, heat is what triggers this MMP-1 upregulation, not IR radiation per se. That’s why we know heating solutions have an effect on PE - temperatures above 43° C destabilize the collagen matrix even without any IR radiation.
There are studies proving that a 200mW/cm2 NIR irradiation applied for 30 minutes on skin maintained at 37 °C (by active cooling) had no significant effect on free radical content or the antioxidant defense systems of the skin. Conversely, the same radiation with skin at 45° C showed free radical formation almost doubled and antioxidant power reduced to about 50%.

We talked quite a lot about different routines; generally in biology there’s no difference among high irradiance for short time or low irradiance for longer time - it’s the law of reciprocity (Bunsen–Roscoe law): the biological effect is directly proportional to the total energy dose irrespective of the administered regime.
Yet, this doesn’t apply all the times in photobiology: why? Because you may get IR radiation with or without increasing tissues temperature above 40° C.
If you don’t, you’ll get downregulation of MMP-1 and the upregulation of procollagen. If you do, you’ll get an upregulation of MMP-1 which is bigger than the opposite effect you had at low temperature.
There are studies showing this biphasic pattern, to explain the reported increase in MMP-1 when the artificial IR-A irradiances are high enough to induce skin hyperthermia.

All in all, is heat bad?
Not necessarily. In PE practices many got impressive results exactly by taking advantage of the (destabilizing) effect of >43° C on collagen, so it’s not that a higher irradiation will hinder results. I think for some this might be the best way to build up gains.
I honestly think everyone approaching NIR should try and find what’s best for him (also because as I said, our understanding of this is now way too limited to build an exhaustive theory).
It doesn’t really matter ‘how long’ you irradiate your penis: that’s strictly connected to how powerful your pad is (remembering though that doubling the time won’t get you twice the amount of energy, since blood flow among other things changes the amount of absorbed energy in vivo against what can be measured in vitro).
The real difference is whether you use it till your penis goes over 43° C or not.

I’d say you may try with pure NIR radiation and no heat: in this case, adjust the irradiation time to keep the temperature below 40° C.
Or, you may pursue the heat positive effect in PE: in that case keep irradiating till the inner temperature goes above that 43° C threshold.

Another issue is, how frequently you should use NIR irradiation. The short answer is, I don’t know.
There are studies proving a repeated, regular NIR irradiation may be more effective in promoting tissue growth and healing; consistent exposure to NIR light may maintain a sustained activation of biological processes involved in tissue repair and regeneration.
On the other hand, other studies show less frequent NIR irradiation might allow for longer recovery periods between sessions, potentially enabling the tissues to respond more effectively to each treatment.
I can only tell that I’ve had good results irradiating basically ‘every time I could’, which usually meant once a day for 4 or 5 days a week. I wouldn’t go over once per day and below every other day (in average).

I hope this adds some useful knowledge for those who are starting experimenting with NIR.

Eventually we have so many resources to support length gain. But not for girth gains. Is there anyway we can use NIR for girthing, boys? FIR or a water proof NIR to put inside the tube for pumping?