More thoughts on how growth occurs.

It is an enormously complex question and does not have any ‘proven’ answers. So what I say is hypothetical.

My belief is that the body will adapt to a stress placed on it.

Microtears will create scar tissue, which is relatively inflexible and has poor bloodflow. Collagenous tissue makes up a large amount of the total tissue in the human body and comes in very many forms. Scar tissue collagen would not be my choice for creating a larger penis; an extra 2 inches created from scar tissue would not be a healthy penis to have.

Even when the microtear theory was the only one out there to explain enlargement, guys were growing bigger dicks without using ADS etc. Because scar tissue contracts as it matures it should cause shortening unless it is never allowed to contract. Perhaps consistency in routine would enable the scar tissue to heal at ‘full length’, or to limit the development of cross-linkages within the tissue as it formed, allowing a nice parallel fibre network, but that would be good at resisting further elongation, so again, not a sensible theory/methodology to employ.

I think frequency and consistency of routine is important for another reason, other than the scar tissue theory. Collagen is a highly adaptive tissue (which is why there are so many forms of it). If you regularly place a load on it, it will find ways to accommodate that stress.

Place too great a load on it, and it will get tougher to resist potential damage.

Place load/stress on it which is toward the upper end of it’s elastic range, and it will think it requires more ability to stretch, so it will increase its elastin component, allowing more stretch. This explains ‘newbie gains’ which appear fast but disappear when PE is stopped.

It also explains why, if you start, for example, clamping, and measure the expansion you get in the clamp, the first week or two you will not get a great deal of expansion. After a couple of weeks when the elastin response has kicked in, you get far more expansion. I use clamping as an example only because it is an easy exercise to obtain consistent measurement with, and also because I found that sub-maximal pressures, within the ‘elastic’ range created this response better than high pressures which are more likely to create micro-tears or toughening.

This is of course my experience; different men may need different levels (higher or lower) to create the appropriate level of adaptation, just as tendon or ligament (other, more commonly studied collagenous tissue) strength varies between people.

However, with consistency, because the penis has ‘other’ functions to perform apart from just stretching, once the new elastin has reached a proportion where the tissue is too elastic, the collagen may convert to a more stable form, creating a plateau when no new growth is experienced. If at this point intensity is increased to try to overcome the plateau, the collagen will toughen up and new gains will become much harder to stimulate. If PE is maintained at a ‘normal’ level during the plateau for a while, gains can be consolidated so that they are not lost when PE is stopped.

At this point a deconditioning break can safely be taken without losing gains, and without having ‘toughened’ the penis. All body tissue has ‘memory’ to some degree, so it will quickly re-adapt to a state it has been in previously, if it is to it’s benefit to do so. This is why it is not good to allow ‘toughening’ to take place; the penis will re-condition and the collagen become tough again very quickly.

After a deconditioning break, the whole process may be begun again.

These are my thoughts, in layman’s terms, on the likely processes involved.

These days I don’t get too involved in the ‘scientific’ threads on the subject, even though that’s what drew me to Thunder’s Place initially. There are many here with scientific/medical knowledge who would like to be seen as ‘PE Pioneers’, or ‘definitive voices’ on certain subjects. I am not one of them and do not put forward my hypotheses as points for argument, nor do I have any wish to fight for their validity.

I just try to help answer guys questions as pragmatically as I can.

PE is a blend of art and science at this point in its development and many (even most) techniques seem to work if consistency is maintained, making it harder still to pin down the ‘best’ methods. There is much empirical information on Thunder’s Place and much of it points in the same direction as to what works.

The science is interesting, and maybe one day it will pin down the most efficient methods of PE, but I think it will be like science in sports: although sporting records continue to be broken with the help of modern scientific methods, a hundred metre sprinter or weight lifter now will be superior, but not vastly superior to his ancient Olympic counterpart.

You asked for my thoughts, Kojack, and that is all these are, not an attempt at an answer to the question. As I’ve typed that much, I hope you won’t mind me posting this as a new thread, quoting your original PM, so others can read it for what it is worth.

(I’m going to be presumptuos of your answer and do so, but will take out your PM if you object)!

All the best,

figo

Excellent post Firegoat very informative. Do you think growth is attributed to growing new cells and new tissue, or merely plastic deformation?

This sounds like a good set of working principles that correlate well to the real world and that have direct practical application.

:up:

Both. I think that plastic deformation is one of the precursors and catalysts to new cell growth.

If I’m not mistaken, Kojack10 believes plastic deformation is a result of micro-tears, and that micro-tears causes new tissue to fill in the tears.

Aha! So now all I have to do is cry a lot on my dick! But how to make micro tears? My tears are usually big ;( .

The best description of the tensile properties of collagenous tissue, and processes of plastic deformation and creep etc. as well as a description of the effects of low modulus stress and high loads can be found here:

Ligament and tendon properties

Anyone interested in how PE really works will find it enlightening reading.

You might find an interesting read concerning Prolotherapy and Ligament healing.

There you will find the 3 phases of healing and the restorative process that causes ligaments to return to their original length after damage.

Dicko 7x5, that was certainly my theory. Also, when micro tears, or micro trauma is created in connective tissue, the tear is filled in by new tissue. It is not a theory that new collagen fills in the spaces, that is a fact, but it is “not” a fact that penis enlargement occurs by creating micro tears, which would later be filled in by a different type of collagen, basically scar tissue.

“Plastic deformation” can be viewed as interchangeable with the phrase “permanent deformation”. Apparently, I can not nail down what is actually happening on the cellular within an enlarged penis.

Maybe the micro tear theory is all wrong. I thought that I was piecing together pieces of the puzzle, but Fire Goat brought up some excellent points about scar tissue.

Does the connective tissue start to adapt to the stress and become longer in an attempt to reduce the stress placed upon it? There is thread here that was started in the last few months that is based on this theory.

I believe that I need to quit trying to figure out what happens on the cellular level.

I like what Fire Goat had to say about the empirical evidence here at thunders.

Don’t be so quick to abandon your theory just yet.

I’m not really abandoning the microtear theory (its not mines, some vets believe this theory), I’m just considering all possible theories. I don’t want to run off with my ideas, large or small.

This is a great thread started by Firegoat that is full of info.

Possibly, Firegoats opinions are in line with Pudendum’s on his thread “Possible reasons for PE induced growth”.

I’ve got a question for you Firegoat. In physical therapy, how long would a stretch have to be held to be considered a “long duration” stretch?

Good question and the answer is it depends on what you are trying to stretch, how easily that part stretches, and what you are trying to achieve with the stretch.

If you look at stretching in athletes, you will see various durations of stretch being used:

To return a muscle to it’s natural resting length after exercise (when it has been in a contracted state), a 10 to 15 second stretch repeated a few times (taking the stretch off the muscle between stretches) will do it, but it won’t make the athlete more flexible.

To increase range of motion at a joint (developmental stretching), it is best to take the joint to it’s full ROM and into a light feeling of stretch, then mentally relax into the stretch until the feeling of stretch disappears, then increase the stretch a tiny bit until you can feel it again, and relax into it. Keep repeating until no further stretch is being produced.

The stretch is not taken off the muscles between each stretch cycle, so it is in effect one long stretch continued until no further ROM is produced. How long it takes to relax into each ‘part’ of the stretch depends on many factors, but is usually 20 to 30 seconds. With an athlete, I would use PNF (proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation) stretches, but this is less applicable to the penis, so I won’t elaborate here; Google if interested!.

For most athletes, a ROM applicable to their sport is all that is needed; to produce too much will de-stabilise joints and cause problems later in life. However, for a ballet dancer or wu shu practitioner or gymnast etc. a greater ROM is needed so developmental stretching is done, but continued for longer once no further obvious stretch is being produced. This causes similar results to what we are trying to achieve with PE; the stabilising structural collagenous tissue (ligs and tendons in the case of the dancer etc.) will be steadily lengthened, allowing a greater level of flexibility than is normal.

Apart from the obvious holding of stretches longer by the dancer etc., they are also very consistent in their stretching. If you are PE stretching as I outlined in my OP, (not forcing it, just stretching to approx. length and applying no more force than that), then you can safely stretch 6 days a week. If you are jelqing or clamping as well, your penis needs more rest. I think jelqing is still the most important exercise and is synergistic to all other exercises, but I don’t really want this to become a ‘give us a routine’ thread.

Sorry if that doesn’t put a number on a ‘long duration stretch’, but there isn’t really a number to put on it. In PE terms we have grown up with hanging etc., so we think in large blocks of time. I think many therapists might answer that a short duration was a few seconds, a medium duration around 30 seconds and a long duration anything over a minute, and for most things this would be about right.

Amen! In my 3.5 year period of PE I am coming to the same conclusion. There is such a ‘point’ above which penis should not be stretched because this gives me no(or worse) results. I found that the best way is to keep ‘just below’ that point so penis will not react in opposite direction(I am talking about ADS now). Good job firegoat!

Good thinking, I like it.

I agree with that, I’ve noticed if I stretch too much (with my ADS) the penis tends to shrink. But after I restart stretching after at least 1 day break, the penis seems to adapt to a longer stretch.
I suppose that stretching further results in more microtears, I guess the key is to keep the penis to a stretched position while healing (although relaxed enough not to create more microtears).