My opinion on the science of PE

Hey guys here’s my take on the science of PE. I orginally wrote this essay as a response to a thread doubting the science of PE in the newbie section but I went ahead and put it here. Keep in mind this is not gosbal or anything. This is just my humble opinion on the matter so go easy on me. When it comes to the science of penis enlargement I think people should study more closely the science behind stretching and deforming connective tissue in general. Looking up the topic of stretching soft tissues or connective tissues on google will show you guys tons of information that you can relate PE with. I think one of the mistakes that people make when it comes to PE is they try to relate it to body building or working out your muscles to stimulate gains. The penis can not be tricked or stimulated into growing. It doesn’t work that way. The penis does have smooth muscle in it but this smooth muscle does not enlarge because some guy starts doing a different or new PE excersise then he’s use too. If a guy changes his PE routine and he starts making gains all of a sudden it’s because he is finally doing something that’s creating enough direct tension and load time to plastically deform the soft tissues of the penis. His penis wasn’t tricked or stimulated to grow at all. What’s happening is the new or different excersize that the guy is doing is turning out to be more efficent at placing the proper stress neccesary to induce CREEP which later leads to deformation and structural remodeling of the tissues.

In my humble opinion the penis is enlarged beyond it’s natural starting size from plastic deformation and structural remodeling of the deformed tissue at a microscopic level. As more deformation and remodeling takes place in a accumilated fashion, the accumilation of remodeled and enlarged tissue will become a visuable and functional gain with time and consistancy. When it comes to rest days the main use for them is to prevent the the accumilated fatigue and deformation of the tissues from accumilating into dangerous levels of fatigue and deformation which can leed to imflamation and injury. Rest days are strictly individual and will be different for everybody.

Now when it comes to PE people have to realize that it takes time to enlarge your penis. People have to realize that you are trying to force your penis to enlarge in size dispite what your genitic make up had already set for you. To enlarge a body part that is done growing once you reach full adult hood is a time comsuming and scientific process. When you think of PE don’t think the terms GROWING your penis because at full adult hood your penis is done growing. Once you hit 21-23 years old then that’s a RAP fellas. Your not getting any bigger naturally. Instead when you think of PE think the term ENLARGING the penis. At full adult hood your penis will not grow anymore but you can ENLARGE it through plastic deformation and remodeling of it’s tunica and ligaments and other connective tissues.

Now when it come to wether it’s possible to gain beyond 2 inches I think it is but I think some dangerous side effects can occur beyond the 2 inch mark. This is what I think. If you gain 1-2 inches in length or girth the enlargement was a drastic chance in raw tissue mass and blood holding capacity but it wasn’t drastic enough to disrupt functionality of the penis or your vascular network. I do believe there is a limit to how much some one can gain and still have a functional penis. I think once you start gaining over 2 inches more then your natural starting size then functionality of the penis will start to decline because of the severe deformation of the tissue’s unaturally increased mass which is well beyond what your genetics had already set for your penis. Erection angle at this point can serious decline and also think about this. When you get an erection your heart has to work harder because now it is delivering blood to the penis filling it up the spongy tissue inside until it reaches your tunica’s maximum expansion capacity. Your heart has adapted to this extra workload it’s put through upon erection. Here is an example of what I’m talking about. A fictional (Bob and Robert) are my two test subjects.

Now lets say (BOB’s) starting size is 7 inches length x 5 inches girth. Bob’s heart and vascular system is use to sacrificing what ever amount of blood is neccassary to fill up a 7 x 5 penis and sustain it for how ever long the erection last. Now lets say after 3 years of consistant PE, Bob is now 9 inches length x 6 inches girth. Bob’s heart and vascular system now has to work harder to accomidate the increase in blood flow to fill up and maintain his new 9 x 6 erection. Now of course Bob’s vascular system obviously adapted over the three years that it took his penis to increase from 7 x 5 to 9 x 6. This increase is a big increase in size but the size increase still allows functionality of Bob’s penis and Bob’s vascular system was able to adapt to the increased blood demands upon erection.

Now lets say (Robert’s) starting size is also 7 inches length x 5 inches girth. Robert’s heart and vascular system is use to sacrificing what ever amount of blood is neccassary to fill up his 7 x 5 penis and sustain it for how ever long his erection last. Now lets say after 10 years of consistant PE, Robert’s erection is now 12 inches length x 7.5 inches girth. In my opinion the drastic and severe increase in size do to plastic deformation would fuck up Robert’s penis’s functionality resulting in complications and poor EQ. Do to essessive deformation, Robert’s erection angle is going to be drastically lowered. The vascular network in Robert’s penis will have complications do to essessive deformation and the most dangerous complication of all is the drastic increase in effort that Robert’s heart and vascular system is going to endure as a whole when Roberts has an erection. Roberts heart and vascular system is going to have to sacrifice as shit ton of precious blood to fill up his 12 x 7.5 dick and sustain it for however long his erection last. Most likely if Robert gets a 100% erection with his 12 x 7.5 dick he will most likely pass out from the huge demand in blood that it will take to make that happen. Especially with his huge girth increase. Roberts poor ol heart and vascular system went from supporting his natural genetic penile limit of 7 x 5 inches to now supporting his new and extremely unatural erection size of 12 x 7.5.
Now if a guy’s natural starting size was already 10 x 6.5 then obviously his heart and vascular system would most likely be able to adapt to an increase to 12 x 7.5. This is because the demands that his heart and vascular system were naturally enduring to support his natural starting size of 10 x 6.5 won’t be that big of an increase in blood demand to support 12 x 7.5.

Hope this small essay helps out a little regarding opinions on the science of PE.

I think you are spot on in terms of enlarging and stretching the penis versus actually growing it. I think that newbie gains consist of ligament stretching, just like if you started trying to do splits or something, and improved erection quality. I think after that you can squeeze out a little more from the ligaments but then you are not going to get bigger unless you have the plastic deformation of the tunica over time.

I think 1-2 inches is the realistic range as you said. I think that the main problem after that is local blood flow as the heart usually has an incredible ability to pump more blood when necessary. The problem is that the arteries leading into the penis especially behind where we can’t PE probably can’t deliver enough blood to counteract venous return. Its like a garden hose hooked up to a sprinkler with a tiny opening. You increase the pressure and the flow can’t keep up because the openings are too small.

I’m starting to think that as an advanced routine, hanging followed by an ADS for length and then clamping for girth is the way to go.

Interesting. A few times when I have been having erection trouble, my heart was pounding extremely hard.

A good reason to do regularly do cardio work.

Sure is! I believe it takes your body about two weeks to make cardiovascular adaptations. I don’t know if your body will create more blood to fill your closest friend up, but I’m sure your heart will either get stronger or at least more efficient.

That was a pretty interesting read. Thanks for sharing. Good thing I am only after 2 inches in gains lol.

Thats why I am going to stop at 8 x 6 lol.

Passing out from too much blood going into too big penis is a bunch of nonsense if you ask me. How can dick have higher priority than brain? Don’t be silly guys. :) It’s an urban myth.

This is a good post because most newbs don’t understand what they are doing. They think they are building muscle in their dick. This is because there is a lot of false information out there. I was re-reading the book “Exercising the Penis” the other day, and there is a section where the author talks about “shocking” the penis into growth as if it were no different than doing p90x or something. Ridiculous.

Do you really think it is possible to gain over 2-3 inches? I think when tissues are stressed beyond a certain point they start to become weaker so past a certain point I agree that your EQ would be weakened by weak and damaged tissue.

I hate using these kinds of marketing examples - but take the earlobe stretching as an example. You could probably stretch it a couple inches and it would retain its natural thickness. But the more you stretched it after wouldn’t it become thinner, sort of like silly putty string?

With dedication I thinks it’s possible, though not probable, to gain 2-3”. Bennett8 comes to mind, and I think Bib has claimed to have gained 3-4” (though I’m not sure of the numbers. I just know there have been a few thread questioning the validity of his claims with no pictures). I also believe as long as you do cardio, and edge, you can maintain, or even improve your EQ with these types of gains.

I do have to say, though, as with anything in life it’s all about moderation. Done properly, with patience to give you time to notice changes in your body, you can maintain EQ, as well as erection angle. In other words, stretch and enlarge, don’t rip and tear. It’s not a race.

Good post S22.

Saiyan,

It is always nice to read your posts. I have a couple of comments, but before that I’d like to offer my "opinion" on the science of PE. The simple fact that we can have opinions is a clear indication of how underdeveloped our knowledge of the science is. I have sort of come to the conclusion that the knowledge of science in PE is not developed enough to use principles gained from it alone to guide our PE efforts. Further, the combination of our knowledge of the science as well as our empirical data also seems unfruitful - using the science as a check point or a reference has not helped that much from what I’ve seen. So, I have instead relied exclusively on empirical themes - treating the actual process of growth as a black box and simply analyzing inputs and outputs.

Firegoat has an excellent post summarizing his view on this, and I agree with it:

More thoughts on how growth occurs.

Otherwise, my comments are with regard to the principles or themes that I have noticed from my own work and from the postings of others - which in the end, is a valid form of qualitative empirical evidence. The fact that it is not quantitative (rigorous measurements that can be statistically analyzed) does not mean that we can’t analyze it, as many seem to conclude.

1. I’ve noticed that there seems to be two drastically different kinds of stimuli. They seem to have different effects (girth vs. length) and different needs of application (recovery for injury or recovery for growth). In the first case, I group work that expands the tunica and engorges it with blood: jelqing, clamping, pumping, etc. In the other group, we have ADS for length, stretching, and hanging. Pumping really may lie somewhere in the middle, depending on how it’s used, but the fact that it expands the tunica is enough to group it with the expanders. Sparkyx once had a discussion with me on my first log about this - if I remember correctly, his intuitive working theory was that the first group activated smooth muscle tissue more than the second group - that that was the distinction between the two. I do not claim to know, all I do know is that they cause different results and seem to require different methods.

- The take away here, in relation to your post, is that I believe the manner in which you deal with the stimulus should differ depending on whether it is a part of the first or second group. Your rest days to avoid injury, for example, seem to be the ideal method for using stimuli of the second group. It would not be the ideal method for stimuli of the first group - they require a much greater recovery time to see gains and avoid injury (this is why I developed the OLF/OLR platform for analyzing fatigue and recovery of a stimulus).

2. Your contrast to shocking muscles into growth is interesting. While I do understand the point you are making, I feel that it is a poor example. Essentially, the reason that the muscle grows when one switches an exercise isn’t because it is tricked or shocked - it is because the muscle is unfit for the kind of stress that is applied. This is the same reason PE’ers experience growth when changing exercises, or generally - the penis is unfit for the stress applied. There is no difference here in the fundamental principle. The goal is to:

Apply a stimulus which causes a stress to the penis that the penis is unfit to cope with (inefficient). The penis will adapt to the stress from the stimulus (the other alternative is injury): your goal here is to make sure that the adaptation that you are getting is one that fits what you want - a larger penis.

Many things can go wrong here, for example:

- Stress is intolerably great in light of the tools available for recovery. This may mean the actual stress in one session is too high, or that over time, the stress is too high because not enough sleep, nutrition, etc. is available. Either was, it cannot grow.
- Stress does not necessitate adaptation - the stress is too light, such that the penis is fit (efficient) to cope with it.
- Stress does cause adaptation, but the adaptation is not growth. It may be an invisible adaptation, it may be visible (vascularity, darkening of the skin, etc.), either way - it does not include growth, so it is not the kind you want.

3. Regarding cardiovascular issues with penis growth:

In my thread about the permanence of gains in pumping, I mentioned an issue which I have come to believe is a the main root of the loss of gains of PE’ers who stop PE’ing. PE work, particularly the work that falls into the first category, greatly improves the vascular capacity of the penis. This leads to better EQ, and a better EQ does not always mean harder - it also may mean bigger. I have had times were, due to fatigue, I had a completely hard but shrunken girth - this does happen. Anyway, back to the point: PE of the first group in particular causes a significant adaptation in the vascular abilities of the region. This is one of the reason for quick initial gains with these methods as well as the possibility of "losing gains" (only the, hopefully small, portion of gains attributed to better vascular ability).

The most difficulty that can be incurred on the vascular system would be from major increases of girth (due to volume). The good thing here is that these increases are due to the first group of exercises, so they also have a significant amount of vascular remodeling. The problem is that some of this may lessen after an extended time (vascular gains seem to have a greater ability to degenerate than tunica gains) - this is where I suspect a large gainer may have trouble with EQ, after quitting PE. The only example I can think of is Big Girtha, but he contradicts this idea (took two years off and did not lose any girth or mention any EQ difficulties) - so I am lead to believe that some of the vascular changes must be permanent enough to maintain strong erectile quality. Length gains, on the other hand, cause less vascular remodeling but take up less volume as well.

Two more comments here:

- The reason big gainers develop lower erection angles is not due to poor EQ. I believe the reason is due to the internal structure of the penis - the reason some EQ = 10 penises stand up high is because they have a higher exit point, while some EQ = 10 penises exit straight out because they have a lower exit point (less internal penis to reinforce a higher erection, there is surely a statistical correlation between exit point and erection angle, by the way). This has nothing to do with EQ or vascular abilities, and you are right I think, it will happen as length gains increase as the internal structure pull down and out over time. However, for penises that point DOWN, this seems to be only possible if EQ is poor, or there is some natural deformity in the internal structures - this is extremely rare, from what I know.

- The implication of your post that starting size is very significant to how the vascular system can deal with ending size may be misleading. Overly large human beings often have inefficient cardiovascular systems for their size, from what I know. I do not have much medical knowledge, but I do not thing that there is a very strong correlation between cardiovascular capacity (genetic capacity, I mean) and human size. How I would edit your point is that: the larger your penis is, the more likelihood that you might have difficulty with the vascular system. Starting size does not seem significant to me, but I may be wrong, as I do not have that much medical knowledge, this is just what I have noticed.

Very good post, as usual - it was an enjoyable read, Saiyan.

saiyan22 - Thanks for your interesting post and thread. The science of PE has been a subject of great debate here at TP. In addition to firegoat’s thread cited by LongVehicle there are a number of threads that go into great detail on the science that you might find interest: Girth theory: glans and corpus cavernosum., Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping, Possible reason for PE induced growth, Smooth Muscle and PE, just to name a few (not to dis any other of the excellent threads and posts). This is in no way "settled science", but there are a lot of great data and thoughts on the subject in these by many of the "great thinkers" of this site.

Just finished reading your post Saiyan and you mentioned one of my concerns about P.E. that being a loss of EQ with further development. So far in my entire P.E. career my EQ has only been getting better but I wonder if I’ll reach a point where my body can’t support the wang. Here’s hoping my body’s limits are beyond my actual goals :gulp:

Thanks for the support and different opinions on the essay fellas. Keep in mind this is just an essay on my opinion of the mechinisms of PE. I also want to say that about the 2 inch mark being dangerous this is not set in stone. Everyone is different an I’m sure there are people that can gain over 2 inches without any funtionality complications but I do believe there is a limit in how much raw tissue mass one can deform without having vascular problems in his penis. Wether that limit is 3 inches gained or 5 inches gained past one’s starting size, their is a LIMIT. Once the soft tissues are drastically deformed and remodeled to a greater tissue mass there’s a point to where structural integrity will be comprimised through out the tunica and ligs. Not to mention the efficiency of the penis’s severley deformed and remodeled vascular network. Now realistically I don’t think anyone will have to worry about increasing there penis size to a point to where complications can occur since people who have gained over 2 inches in length and girth are rare anyway.

The main points that I wanted to get across with this essay is to understand that we are ENLARGING or penis’s. Not GROWING or penis. Once purberty is done then that’s all she wrote guys. There is no more growing of the penis. The other main thing that I wanted to get across is treating the penis like a skelital muscle you work out in the gym. The tissues of the penis enlarge through CREEP and plastic deformation then remodeling of the tissue at a microscopic level which will overtime accumilate to visible and functional gains as more deformation and remodeling takes place. Plastic deformation is completely time and load dependent. When one changes an excersize and he makes gains all of a sudden, it’s because the new excersize he’s doing is proven its self to be more efficient at creating the neccassary time under tension to deform the tissues.

This is interesting, as it would give a person a choice between an extremely high EQ or a larger penis. I know that I would personally opt for a median compromise between the two. I want to get to 8” BPEL from my current 6” NBPEL. So I’d probably stop here and restrain myself from making further gains.

Why do you think that 2” in particular is the threshold for losing EQ?