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Using the ultrasound for therapeutic heat in PE

Originally Posted by Sigmoid
I was thinking, “what happens when you cross two transducer wave pathways through tissue with overlapping penetration depth?”

2x cavitation diameter size? Unexpected shear stresses? Cancellation of the waves? Nothing?

Good thinking.

This has been discussed with Manko , I believe in his log to a some extend. Probably in my log as well.

Putting the transducers OPPOSING :
If the amplitudes, which in this case they do, are identical there will be no net propagation of energy.

Energy flux not propagating the heating effect dramatically drops, as both me and I believe also Manko found out.

Similarities can be seen with a single transducer as well. The back reflecting wavefront reduces the heating effectiveness when using the ultrasound to the penis fully exposed to air.
Using backing medium, or a ultrasonic ghost medium, with a similar acoustic properties similar to the tissue at the opposite side of the shaft, the heating effect is significantly better.

What has been found out in academic scientific studies is that opposing the ultrasonic beams in to tissue it causes standing waves.
Standing waves will cause cavitation and other amplified non-thermal effects. Waves not traveling in space , left oscillating only in time can be harmful.
Excluding the nothing option, each of the prepared answers you suggested are plausible.

We don´t oppose ultrasound transducers.

Ultrasonic beams OVERLAPPING:

Depending of the angle they overlap there will be either attenuation or amplification of the net energy flux.
I have tested it using two transducers in different angles between, beams focused to a same spot.

The radial angle between staying small and a maximum of 90 degrees the heating effect is amplified. The smaller the angle the greater the heating sensation.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)


Last edited by Kyrpa : 05-08-2020 at .

Originally Posted by Sigmoid
I was thinking, “what happens when you cross two transducer wave pathways through tissue with overlapping penetration depth?”

2x cavitation diameter size? Unexpected shear stresses? Cancellation of the waves? Nothing?

I do not have enough experience in the topic, but I recall that same question being addressed by Kyrpa in his thread. Kyrpa came to the best solution of using two transducers at the same time in order to cover as much penis as possible. If I am not mistaken, the consensus was that the waves would cancel each other if you point them in the same direction to each other, but also the possibility to fry your penis inside so better not to overlap them.

I will personally use 2 transducers, but I will NEVER overlap them by any means or reason. I would never experiment in those things without proper scientific research and study about that phenomenon.

Originally Posted by Kyrpa
Good thinking.

This has been discussed with Manko , I believe in his log to a some extend. Probably in my log as well.

Putting the transducers OPPOSING :
If the amplitudes, which in this case they do, are identical there will be no net propagation of energy.

Energy flux not propagating the heating effect dramatically drops, as both me and I believe also Manko found out.

Similarities can be seen with a single transducer as well. The back reflecting wavefront reduces the heating effectiveness when using the ultrasound to the penis fully exposed to air.
Using backing medium, or a ultrasonic ghost medium, with a similar acoustic properties similar to the tissue at the opposite side of the shaft, the heating effect is significantly better.

What has been found out in academic scientific studies is that opposing the ultrasonic beams in to tissue it causes standing waves.
Standing waves will cause cavitation and other amplified non-thermal effects. Waves not traveling in space , left oscillating only in time can be harmful.
Excluding the nothing option, each of the prepared answers you suggested are plausible.

We don´t oppose ultrasound transducers.

Ultrasonic beams OVERLAPPING:

Depending of the angle they overlap there will be either attenuation or amplification of the net energy flux.
I have tested it using two transducers in different angles between, beams focused to a same spot.

The radial angle between staying small and a maximum of 90 degrees the heating effect is amplified. The smaller the angle the greater the heating sensation.

Adiitional comments.

Despite the propagation net energy is lost in the standing wave condition, the energy provided by the transducers has not lost anywhere.
The heating via absorption has diminished but the energy of the standing wave affect the cells in great fashion non-thermally.

In fact in-vitro studies using either reflector or absorbter as a background medium, they have found up to 18 times lower ultrasound intensity under standing wave conditions causing similar rate on cell destruction than in free-field, fully absorbing conditions. It is suggested similar should be supposed to be happening in vivo as well.

That´s why we don´t oppose transducers.
It is also highly recommendable always to use absorbing backing medium such as your own flesh, ultrasound gelpads or ultrasound phantoms.

If some one is using reflecting fulcrum it has to rounded with a small radius not flat in any case.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

ATTENTION EVERYONE:

For all those following the US technology, reading these threads, preparing to follow your own therapy and preparing to buy a US machine, if you decide to buy the US Pro 2000, there are two types. US Pro 2000 and US Pro 2000 2nd Edition.

YOU MUST GET THE US Pro 2000 2nd Edition. Only the 2nd Edition functions in continuous mode. The standard US Pro 2000 works only on pulse mode which would be useless for our purpose.

I discovered this little detail during my research, getting closer and closer to start, since this piece of equipment is portable it has limited configurations. Only a bigger desktop expensive equipment will allow you to chose pulse or continuous.

Again, if you decide to buy the same portable transducer that Kyrpa based his research on, make sure you buy the US Pro 2000 2nd edition.

If I buy the US Pro 2000 2nd Edition, how do I get hold of 2 transducers? Also I don’t understand the precise routine when using this machine - there’s just way too much science here.

For the more simple folk that just want to apply this knowledge pragmatically straight away, there needs to be a STEP BY STEP guide.

The science is incredibly important - great. But there are so many people right now reading this who just want to be told ‘HOW DO I DO THIS?’

Nobody wants to have to become a physiotherapist to understand how therapeutic ultrasound works. Can everyone please focus on more pragmatic discussions here, the science has already been discussed at length in Kyrpa’s first posts.

Originally Posted by 7by5
If I buy the US Pro 2000 2nd Edition, how do I get hold of 2 transducers? Also I don’t understand the precise routine when using this machine - there’s just way too much science here.

For the more simple folk that just want to apply this knowledge pragmatically straight away, there needs to be a STEP BY STEP guide.

The science is incredibly important - great. But there are so many people right now reading this who just want to be told ‘HOW DO I DO THIS?’

Nobody wants to have to become a physiotherapist to understand how therapeutic ultrasound works. Can everyone please focus on more pragmatic discussions here, the science has already been discussed at length in Kyrpa’s first posts.

In order to have two transducers you need to buy two US Pro 2000 2nd Edition. Because each one of them is just a portable transducer. Is not a machine separate from a transducer. But buying two of them is still cheaper than buying a desktop machine with 2 separate transducers.

I agree with you about being too much information. However, that is the task for others to follow in my opinion. The work that Kyrpa has done as well as Manko in research, trial and error, is impressive. It would be disgraceful to ask them for more. I only have admiration for all the time and effort they have put in this literally for years with 100% success. I constantly deeply thank Kyrpa for all his contribution.

With that being said, once I start my therapy I will create a thread with some sort of simple “manual” to follow with clear steps. However, I already know what will happen. If I create a step by step guide to follow, people will start asking why this? Why that? What about doing this? What about doing that? Can I use this? Can I modify this? Can I do it this way? LOL It is human nature. In that case what I will personally do is refer everybody to the existing threads where the science and trials are discussed.

The therapy is still not perfected, and chances are it will take a bunch of us, let us say 50-100 users to follow this therapy in order to develop consensus and agreement in certain applications. However I am confident that replicating Kyrpa’s exercise can lead to significant results to almost everybody.

As I also agree with you in the level of science, in this case you need to understand a little bit more about how this whole technology works in order to avoid unwanted accidents or damage to other tissues. Remember if this therapy existed in the medical community, it would never be assigned as a “do it at home” therapy due to the level of practice and knowledge that requires to do it safely. In that case it would be performed by a therapist in a clinic. The cost would be astronomical of course, rendering the effort useless.

For The One's Looking For Shortcuts

Originally Posted by 7by5
If I buy the US Pro 2000 2nd Edition, how do I get hold of 2 transducers? Also I don’t understand the precise routine when using this machine - there’s just way too much science here.

For the more simple folk that just want to apply this knowledge pragmatically straight away, there needs to be a STEP BY STEP guide.

The science is incredibly important - great. But there are so many people right now reading this who just want to be told ‘HOW DO I DO THIS?’

Nobody wants to have to become a physiotherapist to understand how therapeutic ultrasound works. Can everyone please focus on more pragmatic discussions here, the science has already been discussed at length in Kyrpa’s first posts.

I appreciate what you are asking.
This thread is intentionally theoretic for a reason.

The use of ultrasound is still in the developer mode. Early adopters whom have the mentality to pioneer it and bring it forward should take it first. These people study what it takes to understand the practise.

If the ultrasound protocols had been introduced being the best and most effective, be all end all PE tool ever existed, with a claim to be a fit to all guaranteed safe protocol, the introducer might be banned at the start already.

There will be step to step guides, don’t you worry. Forgive me there being only two men in the history of planet earth to date, monitoring their penile temperatures during ultrasound treatment it just might take some more time before being published.

In the mean time read the detailed practices from the manko007 and kyrpa logs, how they did it and how it related in the monitored temperatures.

If you are more in to results alone, then read what Longerstretch or DocJ wrote about it without temperatures monitored.

LittleEngine and Mike03016 have also taken their first rounds with the US in their logs as well.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

Thanks Kyrpa and igigi, maybe I just need to get more involved with the science and pioneer my own strategy.

Personally the areas I lack an understanding in are the following:
- the use of two transducers seems to expedite the heating timeframe, however there is ambiguity surrounding the position of the transducers whilst using them. Is it one at the bottom and one at the top coming down? Is it adjacent or opposite each other? Does one need to be on one frequency and the other on another frequency?

Also, the workouts I’m intending to do with the ultrasonic device are the following:
- Stretching, building up heat with US pro (10 minutes)
- Hanging, 1 session (20 minutes)
- clamping, 1 session (2 * 10 minutes)
- cool down with a clamp on (without ultrasonic heating)

Doing this for 3 days and 1 off. Total of 50 minutes whilst continually using the US Pro device.

I was thinking of using the US Pro transducer in an overlapping circular motion from the bottom to the head of the penis on the top side, without EVER stopping movement.

What are your thoughts?

Originally Posted by 7by5
Thanks Kyrpa and igigi, maybe I just need to get more involved with the science and pioneer my own strategy.

Personally the areas I lack an understanding in are the following:
- the use of two transducers seems to expedite the heating timeframe, however there is ambiguity surrounding the position of the transducers whilst using them. Is it one at the bottom and one at the top coming down? Is it adjacent or opposite each other? Does one need to be on one frequency and the other on another frequency?

Also, the workouts I’m intending to do with the ultrasonic device are the following:
- Stretching, building up heat with US pro (10 minutes)
- Hanging, 1 session (20 minutes)
- clamping, 1 session (2 * 10 minutes)
- cool down with a clamp on (without ultrasonic heating)

Doing this for 3 days and 1 off. Total of 50 minutes whilst continually using the US Pro device.

I was thinking of using the US Pro transducer in an overlapping circular motion from the bottom to the head of the penis on the top side, without EVER stopping movement.

What are your thoughts?

As always, Kyrpa will better clarify some things since my experience is nowhere near his in this regard. I am preparing to start my own therapy.

- Before you apply heat with the US, it is necessary to do the stress relaxation for some 40 minutes.
- As far as cool down it is my understanding that in order to maximize the use of US, it is better to cool down in a stretched state rather than a clamp state.

I do not think there is ambiguity in the position of the two transducers. Because you need to understand the basic principle why Kyrpa develop this therapy. The whole purpose of the US therapy is for people who cannot grow more in length due to the septum. That’s it. And the septum is just one structure that runs along the penis on the top side from the base to the glans.

The reason why there is some confusion created is because people as always try to find the shortcut or the easy way to try and get results. So some see the US as the magic device that will make them grow a foot of meat. It is not the case. This is strictly for those who for some reason don’t see growth (not after trying a couple times here and there, but rather after following a disciplined constant protocol for 6 months or more) Or for those who have reached a dead end after years of PE due to the septum.

With that being said, the reason for the 2 transducers is to heat up the whole penis at the same time. One transducer is not enough to heat the whole structure at the same time. You would have to heat the bottom part of the penis first, meaning from the base to half way up the shaft, then the other half from half way to the glans. But it makes the process slow and needs an aid such as a rice sock or Infrared light. With two transducers, you can use two hands to heat each half of the penis at the same time to optimize the process.

You need lots of gel, circular motion, slow, never stopping going from one end to the other, then back. (referring to the working area being half of the penis for one transducer) and the same with the other hand on the other half of the penis. Since my issue is the same as Kyrpa, the septum, this runs on top of the penis all along. So I would be distributing the heat directly form the top side of the penis with both transducers, each one on its own half of the penis for the full amount of time while under tension (weight to be determined, probably around the 6kg area)

The settings on the transducers should be the same for both, that way you are providing one equal therapy to the whole penile shaft.

Originally Posted by 7by5
Thanks Kyrpa and igigi, maybe I just need to get more involved with the science and pioneer my own strategy.

Personally the areas I lack an understanding in are the following:
- the use of two transducers seems to expedite the heating timeframe, however there is ambiguity surrounding the position of the transducers whilst using them. Is it one at the bottom and one at the top coming down? Is it adjacent or opposite each other? Does one need to be on one frequency and the other on another frequency?


Hi,
Yeah. The thing is , there are plenty of examples how the actual heating procedures have been produced on the personal logs I mentioned.
I am developing the thing further to find a way to monitor the temperature without a urethral probe.

It can be done with one transducer only. Elevating the temperature up to therapeutic temperature level and keeping it there for the whole shaft area at time is just not so easy.
You can see in the first test run by me how long it took and how much there was fluctuation in the temperature trying to keep the shaft heated, monitoring the actual temperature readings as a guide.
I divided the shaft in two parts. Spend few minutes at one part rising the temperature and then did the same thing for the another part. After ten minutes or so starting to move along both areas once the temperature is up.
In Mankos test you can see how much sooner he reached the temperature concentrating only for the area surrounding the probe.
In the literature it seems to be commonly noticed that effectively treated area with ultrasound should be maximum of 2-3 times the ERA of the transducer. With penis shaft this area is multiple times the ERA of the transducer.
So for the efficiency of the treatment there is lot of advantages on using dual concept.
For the safety of the protocol it is far more safer to use several low intensity transducers, than trying to compensate the heating difficulties with excessive intensity from one source only.
The problem with the affordable machinery is that the quality of the electronics and the transducer can cause really high temporary and focal intensities. These are both untolerable painful and potentially dangerous. Unknown and untrusted BNR values are the problem when going up with intensity.

So it can be done with a sole transducer that’s for sure. Having two and the experience achieved I found the setup superior.

Doing it safe use only one transducer. Doing it safe with two is dividing the shaft in two section and occupying each with one transducer.
Running two at the same section making sure the beams don´t collide or overlap is the safest choice.

Originally Posted by 7by5

Also, the workouts I’m intending to do with the ultrasonic device are the following:
- Stretching, building up heat with US pro (10 minutes)
- Hanging, 1 session (20 minutes)
- clamping, 1 session (2 * 10 minutes)
- cool down with a clamp on (without ultrasonic heating)


I have to remind you that the clamping with Ultrasound can be a health risk.

Originally Posted by 7by5

Doing this for 3 days and 1 off. Total of 50 minutes whilst continually using the US Pro device.

I was thinking of using the US Pro transducer in an overlapping circular motion from the bottom to the head of the penis on the top side, without EVER stopping movement.

What are your thoughts?

I would advice you to have more rest days between. Using ultrasound based practices three day a row is rather lot expose. Also it would be safer to cut the treatment time to half.
I would also suggest you to concentrate in one thing at time. Take a time frame of 8 weeks for example and divide it in two. First part for the stretching and hanging for the elongation and the latter part for the volumetric expansion and inducing growth responses with clamping. Then you take a extended resting period aka decon break.
It takes a lot of focus to run these protocols in productive way. But there will be results.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

Originally Posted by igigi
The septum, this runs on top of the penis all along. So I would be distributing the heat directly form the top side of the penis with both transducers, each one on its own half of the penis for the full amount of time while under tension (weight to be determined, probably around the 6kg area)

The settings on the transducers should be the same for both, that way you are providing one equal therapy to the whole penile shaft.

I am sure once you have some experience under your belt, you will find it more comfortable on commentating some issues.
Using ultrasound ,especially the 1MHz solution the heat is mostly build at the opposite side the transducer is introduced.
Applying from the ventral side the dorsal side is heating the most.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

Originally Posted by Kyrpa
I am sure once you have some experience under your belt, you will find it more comfortable on commentating some issues.
Using ultrasound ,especially the 1MHz solution the heat is mostly build at the opposite side the transducer is introduced.
Applying from the ventral side the dorsal side is heating the most.

Thank you Kyrpa!!
Once the therapeutic temperature has been reached, does it stay focused in this case on the ventral or dorsal side, or is it hot enough to spread to both sides? I understand the waves concentrate in one side, but I am wondering if the temperature eventually spread evenly to both sides of the shaft.

Originally Posted by igigi
Thank you Kyrpa!!
Once the therapeutic temperature has been reached, does it stay focused in this case on the ventral or dorsal side, or is it hot enough to spread to both sides? I understand the waves concentrate in one side, but I am wondering if the temperature eventually spread evenly to both sides of the shaft.

The temperature conducts and spreads more uniformly after 8 to 10 minutes. From that moment on the apply can be more freehanded.
The build up is rather crucial for the effective heat administration in general. Maintaining is easier.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

Thanks for being so active both of you. One question I do have is:

How is Ultrasound a health risk whilst clamping and is this risk significant, or can it be overlooked?

Originally Posted by 7by5
Thanks for being so active both of you. One question I do have is:

How is Ultrasound a health risk whilst clamping and is this risk significant, or can it be overlooked?

Non-Thermally
Effects on blood carries another concerns especially when using US within clamping as there are some studies indicating the possibility of lysis of erythrocytes in vivo.

Also there is possibility to cause “blood flow stasis” during standing ultrasound wave especially if there happens to be a reflector causing it.( And the skin to air boundary at the back of your penis is indeed such a reflector as well.)
3MHz ultrasound have been reported to cause blood cells grouping into bands during the stasis. Damages in endothelial linings of the vessels affected by the stasis could occur but mainly being reversible. Again like in many other possible damages no permanent damages has been found. 1 MHz lack references but we need to consider similar outcomes.

Thermally
Heat accelerates both cellular oxygen consumption and the rate hemoglobin donates it. The oxygen consumption can be doubled at temperatures of 41 to 45 C.
Clamping sets should be shorter than usual and extra care should be taken not to get severe hypoxia.
The blood , plasma, is not going to warm very effectively with ultrasound, basically very poorly the blood keeps cooling the collagenous tissue quite a bit during the set.

There are the known risks. The relatively low protein content and the density of the organ in the inflated state also brings many obstacles on heating as well.
Waves are getting scattered with the blood cells and the heating effect by the absorption in tissues is lower because lot of the intensity is lost in the scattering.
Blood itself, the plasma, is not going to heat with US a much so the blood keeps cooling the collagenous tissue a lot.
The penis gets warmer but with a weaker rate than when flaccid.
This may lead the user be tempted in increasing the intensity which triggers even more unwanted non-thermal effects.

About the magnitude of risks. For the records it has to be stated as a one taken in to concideration. Risks are real and have been realized in clinical studies.
Does it stop me personally trying it is another thing.

Everyone worrying about it is better to leave alone, everyone else should study it before jumping in.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)


Last edited by Kyrpa : 05-14-2020 at .
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