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Gaining volume with Kyrpa

Originally Posted by TimeIt
Hey Tutt, I’ve got a few concerns with this:

1) How long would you take to work up to 2.5-3.5kg? Without RF, which I think none of us here have used effectively besides you, I was under the impression prolonged US radiation for heating would be dangerous for the tissues after 25 or so minutes. Am I mistaken?


The ultrasonic radiation is really not describing the phenomenon. Indeed it does not exist.
Ultrasound causes mechanical energy vibration in the material through which the ultrasonic waves propagate.
This energy is absorbed in the tissue causing temperature elevation.

Despite the decade’s use in therapy, there is no actual dosimetry for the exposure explained above.

Thermal exposure duration is the dosimetry we should follow.

In the literature, there is a commonly used term, Thermally equivalent time T43: For a given time-temperature profile T(t) at any point in heated tissue, t43 is the time over which a constant temperature T 43 C is expected to yield the same biological effect in the same tissue.

The table presented in the link below contains these T43 derived equivalent times which are supposed to be safe exposure durations for the given temperature.
Thermal Effects Safety


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

Thank you for the very informative response Tutt! I’m using a creep style hanging device and don’t have the ability to build something like your machine so am trying to get as close as possible using this method. I’ll be thinking carefully about what you posted and posting any questions I have. I have used Kyrpas routine with good effect but I’d like to try this as it incorporates the same principles but without many of the extra steps I had before. Thanks again!

Originally Posted by Kyrpa
The ultrasonic radiation is really not describing the phenomenon. Indeed it does not exist.
Ultrasound causes mechanical energy vibration in the material through which the ultrasonic waves propagate.
This energy is absorbed in the tissue causing temperature elevation.

Despite the decade’s use in therapy, there is no actual dosimetry for the exposure explained above.

Thermal exposure duration is the dosimetry we should follow.

In the literature, there is a commonly used term, Thermally equivalent time T43: For a given time-temperature profile T(t) at any point in heated tissue, t43 is the time over which a constant temperature T 43 C is expected to yield the same biological effect in the same tissue.

The table presented in the link below contains these T43 derived equivalent times which are supposed to be safe exposure durations for the given temperature.
Thermal Effects Safety

VERY helpful, thank you. That gives me quite clear guidelines

Kyrpa, Tutt, would you mind checking over this application?

1. Set angle slightly higher than SO. Add 0.5 lbs every 2.5 minutes, begin heating after the first 1.5 lbs. Use a phantom.
2. Work up to 6.5 lbs (13 rounds), hold for 2.5 minutes, then remove heat and add 1.25 lb.
3. Let cool for 10-15 minutes

Effectively creating light stretch and then adding heat, working up very slowly to 6.5 lbs over about 30 minutes, holding briefly, then removing heat and adding approx. 20%, cool for 10-15 min.

Using standard hanging setup with LG Hanger, at slightly above SO angle.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by TimeIt
Kyrpa, Tutt, would you mind checking over this application?

1. Set angle slightly higher than SO. Add 0.5 lbs every 2.5 minutes, begin heating after the first 1.5 lbs. Use a phantom.
2. Work up to 6.5 lbs (13 rounds), hold for 2.5 minutes, then remove heat and add 1.25 lb.
3. Let cool for 10-15 minutes

Effectively creating light stretch and then adding heat, working up very slowly to 6.5 lbs over about 30 minutes, holding briefly, then removing heat and adding approx. 20%, cool for 10-15 min.

Using standard hanging setup with LG Hanger, at slightly above SO angle.

Thanks!

For me, it sounds like a fine strategy for hangers.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

Originally Posted by TimeIt
Kyrpa, Tutt, would you mind checking over this application?

1. Set angle slightly higher than SO. Add 0.5 lbs every 2.5 minutes, begin heating after the first 1.5 lbs. Use a phantom.
2. Work up to 6.5 lbs (13 rounds), hold for 2.5 minutes, then remove heat and add 1.25 lb.
3. Let cool for 10-15 minutes

Effectively creating light stretch and then adding heat, working up very slowly to 6.5 lbs over about 30 minutes, holding briefly, then removing heat and adding approx. 20%, cool for 10-15 min.

Using standard hanging setup with LG Hanger, at slightly above SO angle.

Thanks!


How much of your shaft is covered by the silicon sleeve?


190416 Bpel 16,5 Bpfsl 16,5 Meg 14,2 Beg 15,0

210312 Bpel 19 Bpfsl 19,6 Meg 14,5 Beg 15,3

___Gain Bpel +2,5 Bpfsl +3,1 Meg +0,3 Beg +0,3

I would remain longer under heat at 6,5 lbs.

Originally Posted by Rocco25
I would remain longer under heat at 6,5 lbs.

Without the heat profile known, it is more of a guess I suppose.
If he had already stayed at the stable mean temperature of 41C it is time enough for sure.
The viscoelasticity of the TA subsiding at the static stretch situation shows stress relaxation of -17 % in 150 sec when stretched cold.

According to the results seen here, it is reasonable to justify the loading intervals to be applied in 2,5 min intervals.
Hou_SS_T_2019 (1).pdf
To me, TimeIt is riding on the crest of the wave of science with the timing.

The heat increases the stress relaxation properties multiplying the phenomena to extend I would suggest even the stretch is in creep mode the time is enough when at therapeutic temperature.

In the end, the strain achieved is still the determiner. Looking forward to seeing the results.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

So, Kyrpa, based on the TA properties and load increasing intervals, is it safe to assume that when a threshold tension of 0,17 MPa is achieved, let’s say over the course of 15 minutes, the upper limit for tension should be 0,50 MPa for the rest of the training session. If we stay within those two margins, we should see TA elongation, with or without heat applied, right?

At least that is what I understood.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I want to use heat in order to either speed up the transition to elongation, or aid the elongation process, as a firm believer that the “more time under the right tension and applied heat” equation works.

Could you point whether or not I am in the right direction, given a circumference of 90 mm and 1.9 kg of calculated load. Is three kg the right amount of tension after the initial loading stage of 15 minutes with incremental loading until start of the elastic region of the TA?


Starting point - 15.5 centimeters BPFLS=BPEL, 12 cm. MSEG /// Goal: 20 cm BPFLS, 18 cm BPEL, 14 cm MSEG

Let the marathon begin - Flowsky's progression

Originally Posted by TimeIt
Kyrpa, Tutt, would you mind checking over this application?

1. Set angle slightly higher than SO. Add 0.5 lbs every 2.5 minutes, begin heating after the first 1.5 lbs. Use a phantom.
2. Work up to 6.5 lbs (13 rounds), hold for 2.5 minutes, then remove heat and add 1.25 lb.
3. Let cool for 10-15 minutes

Effectively creating light stretch and then adding heat, working up very slowly to 6.5 lbs over about 30 minutes, holding briefly, then removing heat and adding approx. 20%, cool for 10-15 min.

Using standard hanging setup with LG Hanger, at slightly above SO angle.

Thanks!

That sounds like a solid plan if using a hanging device with discrete loading intervals. If you want to fine tune just a bit more, and if convenient, I believe that there is benefit in performing a warm down instead of cool down. So rather than abruptly removing the heat source, just taper it down slowly over several minutes as the load is increased to maintain strain.

The reason for this opinion is purely theoretical. As documented by Kyrpa through urethral probes, once the heat source is removed, the tissue temp drops very rapidly which indirectly ramps up the stress experienced at the fiber, fibril, and molecular levels at a rate that exceeds our optimal rate used during the primary strain. IMO, it is this type of stress that triggers the stiffening and toughening response we are trying to avoid. So out of an abundance of caution, I think it is advisable to warm down slowly rather than abruptly removing the heat source for a rapid cool down.

This opinion is further supported by studies showing that applying cold packs is actually counterproductive and reduces residual elongation.

Originally Posted by Tutt
That sounds like a solid plan if using a hanging device with discrete loading intervals. If you want to fine tune just a bit more, and if convenient, I believe that there is benefit in performing a warm down instead of cool down. So rather than abruptly removing the heat source, just taper it down slowly over several minutes as the load is increased to maintain strain.

The reason for this opinion is purely theoretical. As documented by Kyrpa through urethral probes, once the heat source is removed, the tissue temp drops very rapidly which indirectly ramps up the stress experienced at the fiber, fibril, and molecular levels at a rate that exceeds our optimal rate used during the primary strain. IMO, it is this type of stress that triggers the stiffening and toughening response we are trying to avoid. So out of an abundance of caution, I think it is advisable to warm down slowly rather than abruptly removing the heat source for a rapid cool down.

This opinion is further supported by studies showing that applying cold packs is actually counterproductive and reduces residual elongation.

Tutt´s educated opinion is reasonable as we are still in the hunt of trying to mitigate plateaus and postpone the decons.

The bio-mechanics he described are precisely correct as the stress increases in the tissue up to 25% during the cooldown. It would be safe to ramp the temp down for several minutes at least still getting the best out of the cooldown stretch.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

Originally Posted by flowsky
So, Kyrpa, based on the TA properties and load increasing intervals, is it safe to assume that when a threshold tension of 0,17 MPa is achieved, let’s say over the course of 15 minutes, the upper limit for tension should be 0,50 MPa for the rest of the training session. If we stay within those two margins, we should see TA elongation, with or without heat applied, right?

At least that is what I understood.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I want to use heat in order to either speed up the transition to elongation, or aid the elongation process, as a firm believer that the “more time under the right tension and applied heat” equation works.

Could you point whether or not I am in the right direction, given a circumference of 90 mm and 1.9 kg of calculated load. Is three kg the right amount of tension after the initial loading stage of 15 minutes with incremental loading until start of the elastic region of the TA?

Unfortunately, your interpretation has some flaws.

Firstly 15 minutes timeline for reaching the inflection point (0.17 MPa) is too narrow. The elongation produced this fast would not maximize the mechanisms low force, low strain rate applications would enable.
A safer way would be not to hurry, working the way in the duration of 30- 60 minutes minimum.

Secondly, 0.50 MPa is not an upper limit by any means, it is an example of a significant load increment needed to yield an additional strain of 1 % after the initial strain at 0.17 MPa.

Then, I would never suggest going that road for extra strain.
Indeed, I do recommend staying at the stress level of 0.17MPa, increasing the mean temperature up to 40-41 C for time enough until yielding the extra strain of 1 - 1.5 %. Most certainly it would happen in 20- 25 minutes at the latest.

And yes, the practice you introduced should eventually produce a similar strain, with a timeline not comparable to the heated option.
Additionally causing tissue damage of another magnitude. Increasing the tendency of tissue strengthening and inviting the premature plateau and need for the decon break. Jeopardizing the future gains with a much greater impact. Highlighting the risk of exercise injuries is guaranteed.

If you get into an elastic range from the well-executed initial stage through the toe region first, the increasements at the elastic range surely are the magnitude you suggested if going that cold and hard way. Not the way I would take it in any circumstance. With heat, you would never need such steps.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)

Originally Posted by Kyrpa
Without the heat profile known, it is more of a guess I suppose.

Yes, I admit it is.
The reason for my guess is that with the protocol in place (20+ min under US at 0.17 MPa), at least 10 min at this very load are in the therapeutic temperature range (subtracting the warm-up phase). Therefore, the 2.5 min seemed a bit short to me.

Originally Posted by Rocco25
Yes, I admit it is.
The reason for my guess is that with the protocol in place (20+ min under US at 0.17 MPa), at least 10 min at this very load are in the therapeutic temperature range (subtracting the warm-up phase). Therefore, the 2.5 min seemed a bit short to me.

Actually. We did not comment on the loading at all, just looked that the load range is not excessively high.
His protocol, as it is his protocol, seems okay to me in general.

We don´t even know where he is on his timeline as he hits the 0.17 MPa threshold, if ever.
Not until he calibrates his loading with the calculator provided, which is recommended of course:
Kyrpa - The characteristics of the tunica albuginea revisited

He is gradually getting up to his maximum load in small increments under the heat from early on, so it is not the protocol we have accustomed to.

In the established protocol we are familiar with, we enter into the maximum load(0.17MPa) once the heat is introduced, staying at this level of stress the entire duration of heating.

So in this light, staying at load increments of only 0.5 lbs for 2.5 minutes is worth trying.

In general, I do think that the simple formula of threshold load stages within my protocol could be tuned into the form of having a gradual approximation of the maximal load.


START 18/13.15 cm Jul 24th 18 (7.09/5.18") NOW 22.5/15.2 cm Fer 12th 20 (8.86/5.98") GOAL 8.5"/ 6"

When connective tissue is stretched within therapeutic temperatures ranging 102 to 110 F (38.9- 43.3 C), the amount of structural weakening produced by a given amount of tissue elongation varies inversely with the temperature. This is apparently related to the progressive increase in the viscous flow properties of the collagenous tissue when it is heated. (Warren et al (1971,1976)


Last edited by Kyrpa : 10-03-2021 at .

Originally Posted by Tutt
That sounds like a solid plan if using a hanging device with discrete loading intervals. If you want to fine tune just a bit more, and if convenient, I believe that there is benefit in performing a warm down instead of cool down. So rather than abruptly removing the heat source, just taper it down slowly over several minutes as the load is increased to maintain strain.

The reason for this opinion is purely theoretical. As documented by Kyrpa through urethral probes, once the heat source is removed, the tissue temp drops very rapidly which indirectly ramps up the stress experienced at the fiber, fibril, and molecular levels at a rate that exceeds our optimal rate used during the primary strain. IMO, it is this type of stress that triggers the stiffening and toughening response we are trying to avoid. So out of an abundance of caution, I think it is advisable to warm down slowly rather than abruptly removing the heat source for a rapid cool down.

This opinion is further supported by studies showing that applying cold packs is actually counterproductive and reduces residual elongation.

I agree with that. My view is not based on scientific studies but on my feeling and taking into consideration that this is how the universe works when in harmony. Meaning that it develops through a continuum (infinitely small incremental steps). Evolution rather than revolution. If you go too fast it can break creating a wound (trauma) that needs to be healed. It feels very natural and healthy to do so to me. So thanks for the reminder. I will from now on cool down incrementally as well as much as I am able to. If you were to plot it you would get a nice standard curve over the whole time of the workout (stress over time).


11.01.2006: BPEL: 17,3 cm (6,8 inches), EG: 13,5 cm (5,3 inches)

03.11.2011: BPEL: 20,5 cm (8,1 inches), EG: 16 cm (6,3 inches)

-- For people who stopped gaining length --> Gaining volume 2 -- Progress log: Wurst's progress log --

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