Using the ultrasound for therapeutic heat in PE

Hi 7by5

There have been conducted temperature trials with a 3MHz US-apparatus with an intensity up to 2.5W/cm2 to understand the temperature correlation between dorsal and urethral temperatures.

I would highly recommend that you are tracking the temperatures during your test as we can see peaks above the proposed “safe temperatures” with such an intensity in well under 10 minutes..

Even better, follow Igigi by example and track every detail of your work so that it could help forum members going forward.

Cheers

Thanks mod.

I guess the majority understand nobody here is trying to be a smartass. The reason why approach some posts like that is to attempt to help that individual to get results in a holistic way. If there is a member named Kyrpa, who successfully applied a science working with other pioneer members here, and achieved outstanding results, I believe the smartest thing to do is to replicate his own experiment, in hopes of achieving similar results. I believe it would be unwise and unrealistic to create my own experiment, with no research or science whatsoever, and expect to achieve similar results just by using a magic wand called “UltraSound”. So if I achieved wonderful results by applying Kyrpa’s protocol, those results literally blew my mind! And all I want is to convince others to do the same, because it works! and I wish everybody to grow and reach their goals! If there was some sort of business or other interests in between, I would understand any concern or negativity, but I am just in a corner here shouting “dont do that, do this, because i tried it too and it really works”

Hello Obiwan,

Trying to deglose your routine to see where you could try something different. I did not quite understand this part “I have 2 transducer leads that I place under the dorsal side of the shaft. I don’t tape them, but as I’m treating, I check several times to make sure they haven’t shifted position too much.” Are you talking about Ultrasound transducers or you meant to say “thermometers”?

Nobody here worried about frying their unit from the inside?

Sorry…meant to type thermocouples. Basically my two wire leads from my thermometer. Sometimes I type these responses in-between patients and I forget to proofread them. I think I’ve seen your pics of your setup where you have 4 wires to measure temperature…I have two.
https://www.ama … /dp/B07P8NWH67/

Sometimes I know my temps don’t move because the wires have moved, but after re-adjusting, they start to jump up. It’s just frustrating to see everyone getting some decent changes in length, and I’m getting next to nothing.

Hi ObiWan77

You have probably explained this earlier, and I am sorry if you have to repeat it, but have you gained nothing with US-assisted PE?

I have encountered some of the same issues as you describe earlier, however uncertain if we have the same root cause.

I tried to follow the proposed protocol and reaching therapeutical heat. However at that point there were little to no alterations pre or post measurements.

What solved that specific issue were to build up the tension really slowly, even in the stress relaxation phase. For now I’m spending approx 10 minutes reaching needed stress relaxation tension (1.5kg) and spending remaining 20 minutes under this tension. Warming up pre stress relaxation and during with rice bags.

For the US-assisted protocol you are executing it in the same manner as I am. Easing into the tension while above therapeutical heat.

For cooldown phase I use a manual stretch for 10 minutes. This is probably significantly higher than my final tension in US-assisted phase which are 3kg

After altering this minor adjustment I continued/started to increase pre and post measurements.

Cheers

Well, a “worry” or a “concern” is based on unknown, ignorance. Not knowing enough information, lack of data. From scientific perspective those things are covered. And to be honest, is common sense.

Of course anybody that engage into this technique needs to take some precautions that have been stated over and over again. In the case of your question, you will feel pain before “frying” your unit lol. But also, that is why each member is expected to monitor temperature. You shouldn’t go beyond 43 degrees celsius. Not monitoring temperature is simply irresponsible and negligent. Negligent with health and safety, but also without monitoring temperature, how do we know we are executing the science correctly? It doesnt even make any sense.

Hello Obiwan,

Sensei touched on what I was going to comment too. About the stress relaxation process and total tension.

From what you describe, your process of stress relaxation and proper strain is not really organized. I believe you are starting with too much weight, and ending with too much weight.

I would fix the following: Ditch the “warmup”. This approach does not require a warmup. Simply start by applying a tension of 200grams - 500 grams. Monitor with scale. If you dont have a way to lock the tension in place and work on strain, you can still work on creep. For this, increase tension slowly by 200 grams at a time every 3-4 minutes. This is the stress relaxation phase of 30 minutes. Do not pass 2.5kg in this phase.

Then incorporate the US, keep the work on stress relaxation the same way. No difference. All it changed is that now you apply the heat. Tension monitoring and increase stays the same way.

Finish those 20 minutes under US, then stay under the same tension for 10 minutes to cool down. I wouldn’t use more than 3-3.5kg in total, at least in an initial phase to determine your response first.

In regards to the thermocouples, I understand now and I highly recommend you to tape them. Not only they will move with the gel, but also some gel from the sides might touch the wire lowering the temperature and of course giving you a false read. I bought gorilla tape to secure the thermocouples in place. Haven’t tried it yet but I am about to find out.

To avoid hardening of the septum, the weight should be increased slowly, as already stated by Sensei and igigi. Maybe this will help you, Obi.

The SR vs creeping issue also concerns me. In my P1 I did not use SR but creep and gained 1.6 cm BPFSL within 77 days. I would like to discuss this topic in more detail with Kyrpä, as he is a proponent of SR. I recall a statement by Tutt that he thinks both are possible, although SR is the preferred option: Tutt - Gaining volume with Kyrpa

However, Kyrpä is of the opinion that creeping leads to hardening of the septum: Kyrpa - Gaining volume with Kyrpa

Creep has the huge advantage that it is much easier to handle, especially when you are hanging. You can theoretically read the newspaper, pick your nose, iron or do anything else on the side, since “only” the weight has to be constant. You have your hands free and don’t have to worry about anything. SR is a bit more challenging.

To improve the common understanding of SR vs. creep, I tried to show load and strain graphically. I hope that it helps a little. Pls see the attachment.

I have already posted this in igigi’s Progress report:

Explanation SR
Yellow curve: The strain or the length is changed every x minutes (here 5 min has been established as a good choice).
Orange curve: As soon as the length (strain) is constant, the load on the shaft is reducing (or in other words: the resistance of the shaft decreases) ==> SR

Explanation creep:
Blue curve: load is increased by 500 g every 5 min.
Gray curve: The length resp. strain creeps upwards.

Then I would like to take the liberty of saying a few words about the unpleasant discussions here.
I find this topic here overwhelming and every action is based on scientific research and can be justified. I think there is no question what a great contribution Kyrpä, Tutt & Co. have made here. To be able to make decisions like this takes knowledge, time and the ability to teach yourself things. These are all not things to be taken for granted and I am extremely grateful for ALL the contributions here. Stay kind to each other and we will all grow.
Humility and gratitude never hurt.

Excellent post Rocco!!! That explains every clear the strain vs creep approach. It is one of the single most important steps on this process. The UltraSound is just another important accessory but by itself does not do the job.

Thanks igigi. I hope I was able to express it understandably. Sometimes I also have a hard time understanding things here, especially since complicated points were also presented in complicated language.

A few words about the scientific approach:
- If you claim that there is beer in the refrigerator, then you are a theologian (claim without proof).
- If you go to the refrigerator and check if there is beer in it, then you are already doing science.
- If you claim that there is beer in the refrigerator, although you looked before and there was none, then you are an esotericist.
Meaning: To develop things in theory and then to check them is a scientific procedure.

I wish you all a nice Sunday!

I am happy to give a look into it.

First exercise: In general that sounds fine other than not knowing the intensity used, the opinion does not count anything. If you are using temperature control then fine.

Second exercise: 20 minutes under clamp with ultrasound is a definitely not the way to do it. You need to divide it to several shorter sets and release the clamp between.

With 3MHz depending of the intensity used you will be able to reach the therapeutic temperature in few minutes.

Temperature control is imperative with clamping. The intensity needed is much greater than with flaccid shaft, therefore the risk rate is greater as well.

Not going for the details with the intensity and timing as the knowledge we have is still experimental and potentially risky. There is a great deal of responsibility when putting up such a numbers as there is a tendency of people reading any information as a recommendation.

Great graph for explaining the difference between stress relaxation and creep.
What we are missing is that there is a possible difference in timeline.
We might possibly be able to achieve the the desirable strain in shorter given time with stress relaxation. That being the main motivator for me to choose the SR.

Another thing to consider is that the following heated exercise will produce phenomena described in my signature. The increase in the viscous flow properties has been interpreted in several other sources as a increased stress relaxation of the tissue.
I suggest that if we have already maximized the naturally occurring stress relaxation prior the event, we should be a be to reach results far beyond with the following heat.

I think something crucial has been lost in translation here. Being an engineer you should know the difference between hardening and stiffening.
Hardening (or strengthening) of the tissue is whole another phenomena than the stiffening what you are describing.

Visco-elastic material such as biological soft tissue the septum is, STIFFENS against the loads introduced too fast or in excessive increments.
With stress relaxation this stiffening subsides and the more severe the stiffening has been the more time is needed it to happen.

Actually I didn´t say anything like that at the quoted post.

What I was preferring was that that the exercises , in what ever form they are produced, should be conducted relying ot the strain achieved during. The displacement during the exercise will lead to lengthening. Conducting the exercises by work load only we are relying to the stress produced on the tissue. Trained like that the tissue will respond by strengthening by time

Thanks for the comments, Kyrpä.

Language is really a barrier for me sometimes. In reference to Obi, I really meant stiffening. Thanks for the clarification.

Now you’ve really lost me. I understood that stress leads to strengthening of the tissue. With creep I keep the stress constant and thus it should strengthen over time. By implication, the strain should then become less with the same load, correct? So I understood your statement which I quoted to mean that working with creep leads to strengthening by time. Where is my thinking or understanding error?

We put the tissue under stress with stress relaxation exercise as well.
All excessive stress leads to strengthening. As we can find out from every available study concerning tendons and ligaments, all exercise does so starting after few weeks continuation.
So keeping the eye on the strain during exercises keeps us away from stressing the tissue excessively. By any means.

It was you who came into a conclusion that specifically creep leads into strengthening. I did not put it the way you referred me to have done
In theory It might be as you claim creep leading to premature strengthening, the tissue is under the stress longer with creep. I can´t argue that you are wrong with your theory.

Sorry to be picking up these nuances. I just happen to be bit tender if I am referred erroneously.